DanceDanceRevolution A (AC)

I'm not a fan of the random doubling of the tempo the chart does (though honestly, it took over a year for them to actually use that in a boss chart, that's some restraint, compared to past games and particularly SN that little piece of-), due to basically forcing a lower speed mod due to one part, but otherwise the chart's pretty good.

(And while I'll admit I'm actually a fan of most BPM gimmicks, arbitrarily doubling tempo is my one major beef.)

Song is kind of cool, the BPM changes seem a little silly, and some of the patterns look pretty fucky. That's about as much as I can say about it.

---

I'm honestly fine with speed halving as long as the arrows are less demanding and cluttered when they slow down. Speed doubling, on the other hand... (Max.(period), I'm looking at you)

To be fair, the speedup in Max Period was actually a legitimately interesting twist back when Extreme JP CS came out.

---

I can understand that. That was the first song to hit 600 BPM, after all. The only problem I have is that it renders most of the chart almost unplayable just to make the speed at the end readable. (And by "readable", I mean not even I'm comfortable at 600 BPM arrows yet...) Otherwise, it's actually my favorite song in the entire MAX series.

Yeah, I think Max.(Period) gets a pass for being a thing BEFORE switching between BPM multiples was beaten to death by every boss song imaginable.

---

I'm still trying to figure out why Bag's BPM was halved in DDR but had the proper speed, 130BPM, in IIDX.

It's to make bag more challenging in DDR. IIDX is a harder game so they doubled the speed to make it easier I guess. That's just my take

---

The issue with that is that speed mods exist.

Speed mods also existed in DDR Extreme, the game in which Bag first appeared in DDR.

The biggest clue here is the fact that Bag was a 10 on the old scale, putting it on par with songs like MAX 300. And then they rated it a 13, equivalent to a 9. I guess we'll never know for sure...

Anyway, I personally think the actual, intended BPM is the halved one.

Idk if speed mods were that popular back in the day and considering how popular high-speed songs like MAX 300 were despite speed mods existing like you said

---

If anyone tried DANCE DRILL on a DDR X cabinet, before it was possible to change your speed modifiers between songs, they'd feel it for themselves how it feels to play bag on the same speed as whatever you play MAX 300 on. Thank God DDR X2 made that possible.

---

You guys seriously need to learn to read something at 1.5x a lot of these complaints about the bpm changes are silly lol

It's less that it's necessarily that hard (though for MA you want the maximum separation between arrows possible to maximize each individual arrow's space), so much as forcing 80% of the song on a lower speed mod for one part feels like a really obnoxious way to make a song harder.

I mean, seriously, Beatmania IIDX and basically none of the other Bemani games never do this. Why should DDR?

(then again IIDX is basically what all rhythm games should strive to be so it's a high bar)

(and also DDR does a lot of really annoying things differently from all other bemani series)

EDIT: Oh, and on another note, if you're in a scenario where you can't actually read the tempo (EXTRA EXCLUSIVE hides tempos, remember), then you will die because there will a double-speed section that you could not possibly read without knowing it was already there.

Really; that's what this all comes down to; does the player require to memorize the chart to pass it? Memorization should be helpful, but never required.

EDIT #2: Also, let's not start a giant flame war on BPM gimmicks; I have a feeling people have argued about it in the past and I'd prefer not to do it here.

Actually, The legend of MAX reaches 666 bpm on a Freeze Arrow jump. It precedes MAX.(period) because DDR EXTREME AC was released before its CS counterpart, and while LoM appeared on both releases, MAX.(period) was a CS exclusive until Replicant D-ignition.

That may be true, but you're just holding a freeze during that time so it doesn't really affect the readability of the chart. (I didn't even notice it sped up until years later when I was in Edit Mode on the console version.)

Point being, songs with wildly fluctuating tempos like Neutrino are annoying in that they force you to use a lower speed mod throughout the whole song simply because of one faster part.

And this kind of thing does crop up in other rhythm games from time to time; SOFT LANDING ON THE BODY from IIDX 2nd style was so obnoxious about its speed changes that now any song with sudden double- and/or half-time sections is referred to as "soflan." To the point where Camellia named a song after it.

---

I think any BPM changes are fine as long as they can be justified musically. I'd say Neutrino does pretty well in that regard since the BPM changes make the chart visually reflect how it sounds (lots of arrows on screen in the parts with a lot of background noise, few arrows on screen when there's a few distinct sounds in the speedups).

My thought exactly. As for difficulty, looking at Neutrino, the most you need out of a speed mod is an x2, which is a comfy speed for many songs anyway. The arrows are still simple to read when going slowly, it's just the quick speed-ups that need memorizing, and whether it goes double-speed or quadruple. It sounds big, but again, you don't need a crazy-slow speed mod to reaf the higher BPM. I'll admit, I enjoy songs with fluctuating BPM (Pluto and Monkey Business being some of my favorites), but some songs don't work for me. This one does. (Still not touching that 16 with a 5 1/2' pole, though, I'm not as good as everyone here)


I haven't seen any personal attacks yet, so I don't think we qualify as a flame war yet. Honestly, I'm enjoying this discussion, and at least it's relavant and on-topic, unlike a few other discussions I've participated in on this very thread in the past... You are right, though. It hasn't become uncivil yet, but we should try to remain civil.

Memorization and learning I believe are two different things. Learning is understanding what to expect, memorization is... well, memorizing something from a specific context.

Neutrino's chart (aside from the 300 or whatever BPM) parts didn't hit me as much of as much of a surprise. I see chunks of arrows, I expect it to be half speed. I see 8th runs and I listen to the song's preview, I expect either normal speed or double speed. I also kinda don't like the idea people may be suggesting that hiding the tempo as if there's some malevolent intent to just throw BPM gimmicks and frustrate players. It isn't...

Not forcing an interpretation on what you're trying to say, I just think that there should be charts where players should either learn a skill set (like preparing themselves for half speed BPM changes) and learn to fail a song and understand why (not memorize a chart or pass something first try). Hiding the BPM shouldn't matter. I actually enjoy when people guess the BPM of a brand new chart the day of by tapping it out and using other songs as a base to ballpark what speed to use. That's using what they learned and then when a wrench is thrown in the way, use that as a lesson for next time.

I will say though that if DDR A pulls a Pluto I might not be all for it. I love Pluto, but I honestly thought it was kinda dicks to put that as an Encore Extra. Half of me loved that challenge of learning the song but stops (especially there) are so unique to the song and it doesn't employ much of what DDR can teach to be anything but a sort of "memorize" kind of deal (or at least learn the stops on an easier difficulty).



But yeah, tl;dr Neutrino can be learned, not memorized. DDR A didn't pull a fast one on us yet, imo. I can see why but I also have a belief that people are so used to not having to learn a chart that when a chart requires conscious effort to learn it is more likely dismissed as not good. Plus these kinds of charts kinda force people to play more DDR just enough to not be a frustrating experience.

Well, well, well. What have we here?

---