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IIDX Charts With Special Timing Windows

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Post #1 · Posted at 2012-08-01 05:02:46am 11.7 years ago

Offline Catastrophe
Catastrophe Avatar Member
101 Posts
United States
Reg. 2008-01-21


Last updated: 2020-09-19 08:15am
I was curious which songs in IIDX have special timing windows, so I wrote a program to find out. I know this is a slow subforum but I wanted to post this somewhere public. Eventually it'll show up in Google searches, people can link to it, I can find it later, etc.

Introduction
Unlike other Bemani games which use hardcoded timing windows, beatmania IIDX allows chart designers to define new timing windows for each chart. The beginnings and ends of the great, good, and bad windows are what can be moved. The "just great" window is always defined as the just frame and the one before. It cannot be moved. (I'll mention Gambol later.)

Inconsistent timing windows might sound strange. Wouldn't you expect the judgements to remain fair and consistent? Well they pretty much are. The potential for misuse is there (Gambol) but for the most part the timing windows are consistent. The songs with altered timings are the ones with keysounds which are notable for reason. And remember, the Just Great window never moves. Only the great, good, and bad windows can move. I can think of a few reasons for doing this:

- In old beatmania games (especially including 5 key) the chart designing process was tedious. It was done by hand without the same tools that we have today. Old charts had fewer keysounds, but those sounds tended to stand out over the background more. But if these "standout" keysounds feel off (it depends on how the song sounds) then the only solution is to alter the song or move the windows. And as they say, don't fight human nature.
- Some songs like The Earth Light and Genom Screams have smaller bad windows than normal. This is probably to keep you from skidding on the jackhammers. It's proof that the developers love you and want you to have FUN!
- The proper timing could be debatable. Electric guitars and big fat beats are the most common offenders.

In IIDX Gold AC the series switched to a new engine which uses milliseconds for timing instead of frames. However, the timing windows are still specified in frames.

Default Timing
Most charts define the following 6 numbers at the top. These are the normal timing windows:

{ -16, -6, -1, 3, 8, 18 }

The proper way to interpret these numbers is best shown with an image:

https://i.imgur.com/XyBh4Ug.png

The Exceptions

And now for a list of songs which do something else. The number to the left is the song's unique ID number.

GROUP A: substream songs with wide timing windows { -17, -9, -2, 4, 11, 19 }
109 - 22Dunk (singles only)
113 - Brilliant2U
212 - SP-Trip Machine (IIDX ver)
216 - Put Your Faith In Me (IIDX ver)

These songs also have a wide great window:
432 - Flowers for Albion {-18, -8, -2, 5, 10, 20 } (very wide greats)
311 - Skyscraper {-16, -6, -2, 4, 8, 18} (extra early and late greats)

GROUP B: old songs with a wide good window { -16, -8, -1, 3, 10, 18 }
100 - 5.1.1.
103 - R3 (also +1 good frame over the others)
104 - Macho Gang
109 - 22Dunk (doubles only)
828 - Murmur Twins (the keysounds in this song are pretty vague, come to think of it)

These songs are in group B and also enjoy a smaller bad window { -12, -8, -1, 3, 10, 14 }
110 - Dr. Love
120 - Paranoia Max -Dirty Mix-
530 - The Shining Polaris

Group C: old songs with tighter good windows { -16, -4, -1, 3, 6, 14 }
115 - Deep In You
119 - Keep On Movin
802 - Alien World (I knew it!)
959 - Quickening

Group F: mostly 6th style songs with a reduced bad window {-10, -6, -1, 3, 8, 12}
200 - .59
312 - Tangerine Stream
603 - Blueberry Stream (they should move it into group E)
605 - Colors
613 - G2 (good thing)
615 - Linus
616 - NEMESIS
622 - Take It Easy
627 - Kotti Wo Muiteyo
732 - Spica

Group E: the perfect combination of group F (less bads) and group D (more greats) {-10, -6, -2, 4, 8, 12}
1352 - MOON
1413 - Stars***
1650 - Nadeshiko Rock
1765 - Sorrows

also:
105 - The Earth Light {-10, -5, -2, 4, 7, 12} (more of what you want, less of what you don't)

Group D {-16, -10, -2, 4, 8, 18}

Group D gets its own section because it is so large. Songs in this group were probably put here by the developers because they thought they were too hard to score on. This section is full of fat beats (TaQ), electric guitars, and noise songs. All of these songs get +1 early great window and +1 late great window. The early good window is also kind of generous.

202 Dancin' Into The Night
203 Digital MinD(A/T Libra mix)
205 Electro Tuned(the SubS mix)
206 I Was The One
208 Indigo Vision(full flavour hide around mix)
304 era (nostalmix)
305 Holic
310 Schlagwerk
406 DXY!
407 empathy
408 era(step mix)
414 KAMIKAZE
421 Voltage (feat. Hidemaru)
509 QQQ
510 Radical Faith
518 still my words
519 sync
604 Buffalo
619 route 80s
621 Summer Vacation(CU mix)
623 VJ ARMY
629 19.November
703 AVE DE RAPINA
705 BRING HER DOWN
708 Cheer Train
721 Last Message
722 Let the Snow Paint Me
725 Marmalade Reverie
733 Spooky
734 stoic
737 traces
800 abstract
806 Blame
808 CELEBRATE NITE
810 DANCER
824 LOVE IS ORANGE
839 symbolic
846 YORU NO SANGURASU
912 moon_child
921 ECHOES
926 Karma
928 quasar
938 one or eight
951 Abyss -The Heavens Remix-
952 Distress
1016 Lucy
1028 Innocent Walls
1126 PF CONCERTO ANTI-ARES
1202 Little Little Princess
1220 garden
1354 Concertino in Blue
1408 CAPTIVATE-CHIKAI-
1559 satellite020712 from "CODED ARMS"
1649 Jack
1758 SAYONARA HEAVEN

Outliers

- Scharfrichter does not define any timing windows at all! It has the same bug as General Relativity in 9th style. However, Lincle automatically fills in default timing windows. This is also true for every beginner level chart.

- eRAseRmOToR pHAntOM has very small good and bad windows: {-8, -4, -1, 3, 6, 10}. Good call by the developers.

- Gambol pulls a neat trick on hyper. The timing window definition is {-15, -7, 0, 2, 9, 17 }. By moving the early great window to a non-negative number (0) half of the just great window is covered with the good window! That leaves you just one frame with which to get a just great! This song is both a running joke and a reference to how hard the timing was back then. Unfortunately, Lincle fixed the bug which allowed Gambol's timing windows to overlap. Now that there's two full frames to get a just great there's really no point in playing this song anymore.

- Gradiusic Cyber actually attempts to shrink its timing windows during the song! And stranger, it only does so on normal and hyper. The another chart has standard timing. The changes are as follows:

7N, 7H, 14N:
at the start: { -10, -8, -1, 3, 10, 12 } (fewer bads and more goods)
after 84.706 seconds: { -7, -4. -1. 3. 6. 9 } (hilariously tight)

14H:
at the start: { -10, -7, -1, 3, 9, 12 } (one less frame for goods compared to singles)
after 84.706 seconds: { -7, -4. -1. 3. 6. 9 } (same as singles)

But also as far as I can tell through testing, these instructions were never obeyed anyway.

Omissions

I do not have data on the following songs:
- CS exclusives
- songs which are not in Resort Anthem or Lincle
- entrance
- hormiga obrera
- bag
- (916) midsummer's night dream
- Love Love Shine (which was in group D at least before it was cut)
- himawari
- Under The Sky
- pink rose (the new one)
- the songs added in Lincle Link 5

Exceptions to the Exceptions

There are a few occasions when the game will alter the timing windows.

"GJH" and "GJA" codes. Last seen in some home versions and AC Resort Anthem. These lock the timing windows to the ones that Gambol hyper and Gambol another use. Have fun with that.

In AC Lincle the turntable is given a bonus frame. I'm not sure exactly where, or how, but I think it's +1 late just great frame AND +1 late regular great frame, to make it nice and symmetrical. This is something that the home versions have been doing for a long time. (That's why you can get 2 greats on Gambol another.) At home it was to compensate for the analog -> digital conversion. In Lincle, I don't know for sure.

During doubles, "versus non-battle" (which was eliminated in Lincle), and "singles doubles" (playing half of a doubles chart on a home version) all columns get +1 great frame just like the turntable. Again, proof that the developers love you and want you to have FUN! Also, please at least look at their doubles charts. It's half of the game and most players never look at it.

Post #2 · Posted at 2012-08-01 07:31:33am 11.7 years ago

Offline Ashura96
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Reg. 2008-02-13

3DS Friend Code: 5472-8981-1256Game Center Nickname: Ashura_96
"shakeitdon'tbreakit"
Neat stuff!

Always wondered just why so many songs had noticeably different windows. Many old songs, long gone, having bad ones, like SOFT LANDING ON THE BODY. I see you don't have data for it, but it makes sense.

Post #3 · Posted at 2012-08-01 09:06:02am 11.7 years ago

Offline CentiJR
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74 Posts
United States
Reg. 2011-10-17

You didn't mention STOP VIOLENCE! from beatmania. That had some serious strict timing. It was ridiculous
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/shahllen/SNSDGaga20Sig.png

Post #4 · Posted at 2012-08-01 09:09:02am 11.7 years ago

Offline Ashura96
Ashura96 Avatar Member+
2,805 Posts
United States
Reg. 2008-02-13

3DS Friend Code: 5472-8981-1256Game Center Nickname: Ashura_96
"shakeitdon'tbreakit"
And you didn't read the whole post, he doesn't have data for 5 key songs...but it sure explains why the timing was so strict.

Post #5 · Posted at 2012-08-01 10:12:06am 11.7 years ago

Offline CentiJR
CentiJR Avatar Member+
74 Posts
United States
Reg. 2011-10-17

Huh, I thought for sure it was in the 7key Mode. My mistake
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/shahllen/SNSDGaga20Sig.png

Post #6 · Posted at 2012-08-12 09:10:11am 11.6 years ago

Offline Velius
Velius Avatar Member
2 Posts
United States
Reg. 2007-06-25

interesting stuff

so can you explain the timing difference between pre gold and post gold for AC

im not sure what the issue is still i know 9th had songs that were hillariously easy to impossible

and 10th was all around tight

and then red to distorted still had timing thats far more difficult than CS and GOLD+...what gives?

P.S. update your clapper program please <3

Post #7 · Posted at 2012-08-12 09:42:28am 11.6 years ago

Offline TaroNuke
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This was a very good read Smile
You get an upvote from me.

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Post #8 · Posted at 2012-08-12 09:56:12am 11.6 years ago

Offline Astroman129
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Hmm, that info about Gambol was pretty interesting.

Thanks for posting Smile

Post #9 · Posted at 2012-08-12 10:07:55am 11.6 years ago

Offline KKiONI
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Canada
Reg. 2007-12-06

Nintendo Network ID: KKiONI3DS Friend Code: 2320-6631-1671
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I didn't see this when it was originally posted, but wow that is some interesting stuff. Read it from top to bottom. I never knew that the Just Great timing was that narrow... not to mention that they were dynamic. I always had an odd feeling they were, but I usually just concluded it was all in my head.


Post #10 · Posted at 2012-09-13 07:05:49pm 11.5 years ago

Offline MilkChan
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67 Posts
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Reg. 2007-06-21

So I saw you reference General Relativity but I never played it on 9th AC, so since you said the timing windows weren't referenced at all how did it affect the song? Was it just complete chance for the judgment you'd get?

Post #11 · Posted at 2012-09-13 07:16:46pm 11.5 years ago

Offline Aegis
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Reg. 2009-04-16

"."
What do you think of Op.31?

Post #12 · Posted at 2012-09-13 08:40:27pm 11.5 years ago

Offline Meseki
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United States
Reg. 2008-07-08

Quote: MilkChan
So I saw you reference General Relativity but I never played it on 9th AC, so since you said the timing windows weren't referenced at all how did it affect the song? Was it just complete chance for the judgment you'd get?
If I remember correctly, General Relativity took the timing windows of the previous song. If it was the first song played upon booting, it would have no timing windows:

IIDX Rank: SP 九段 (7/8)/ DP 七段 (5/8); 1P Side player
SP 11* Clears: 132/150 (88.00%); 12* Clears: 23/96 (23.96%)
Has access to CS 9th-EMP+PB+US, uses extended KOCs.

Post #13 · Posted at 2012-09-16 09:07:13am 11.5 years ago

Offline Zowayix
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1,144 Posts
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Reg. 2009-09-19

You posted about Gambol Hyper's messed up timing windows, but what about Gambol Another?

Post #14 · Posted at 2012-10-08 01:01:53am 11.5 years ago

Offline Silverhawke
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Last updated: 2012-10-08 01:01am
Quote: Zowayix
You posted about Gambol Hyper's messed up timing windows, but what about Gambol Another?

I think in GAMBOL [A] the whole just great window and great window got covered. However the turntable gets +1 late on the just great AND +1 late on the great frame on the home versions, which is why there's one frame of great (?) for the turntable, allowing you to score 2 greats on GAMBOL.

This is just what I understand from reading the whole post, maybe OP can come up with a better explanation (with the exact numbers)?

Bump: I do hope Catastrophe is still here...

Can you PM me the list of which song corresponds with which song ID, such as 1758 = SAYONARA HEAVEN. This will be helpful, thanks in advance!
my homepage → silverhawke.xyz

Post #15 · Posted at 2016-06-14 03:37:05am 7.8 years ago

Offline bryankam03
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Malaysia
Reg. 2015-11-28

3rd style CS also got a several timing problems even like OVERDOSER and SOFT LANDING ON THE BODY. The timing maybe haven't fix yet. GAMBOL timing also got problems in HYPER. NORMAL got fixed. I mean the ARCADE VERSIONS.

Post #16 · Posted at 2016-06-14 04:43:25am 7.8 years ago

Offline SM MaxX
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