On the topic of making DDR appeal to GH refugees.

With the sudden death of the GH franchise (pun intended), I am starting to think that this could be a good time for DDR to re-shape itself to appeal even more to players who can't seem to realize that RB still exists.

But how?

I am thinking that what DDR needs, is a complete reboot. Maybe even a separate series for this (but still with some DDR branding somewhere for name recognition, much like seeing a GH logo in small on the DJ Hero packages) so it doesn't quite mess with the normal DDR series.

What I think:
-Keep the normal gameplay. Maybe make things easier to calibrate, but keep it much like the classic game as possible, maybe bring back 6-panel/double if needed. None of this Groove Trigger/Not quite Star Power nonsense
-Long versions only. The concept of using short versions is an artifact of the arcade version and should really be reconsidered for console versions.
-Good amount of music from all genres, but still at least give us licenses with the potential for boss-level charts. DDR really needs a difficulty injection.
-Custom characters, cool venues. Of course
-Or better yet, shed the happy J-pop style interfaces for maybe a cyberpunk rave ... look or something. And/or give us a good story, maybe involving vikings, and puzzles/challenges.
-A good amount of DLC with no uncertainty

Though, if you haven't figured it out, a lot of what I've suggested is what GH and RB have done. The point, is that Konami seems to be too afraid to change a lot of the core fundamentals. While they haven't been afraid to try new things (more "mainstream" soundtracks, motion controls, trying to portray yourself as a neutral exergame when you could seriously up the ante and finally make a good DDR game that EVERYONE would like.

So now that I'm done ranting, any comments?

I've converted people to DDR just by marketing the health benefits rather than gameplay. I don't know if this is the case in other areas, but where I live a lot of people playing GH and RB look down upon DDR because they think it has no good songs, which is predictable since they are two completely different rhythm games. Definitely a good idea to add some more rock songs to DDR, but it has to be "dance-able"to some point. After all, there is a fine line between DDR and ITG.

---

Interesting thought. It seems like you're discussion centers around appealing to those in the home market (and rightfully so). I think part of the DDR brand's problem stems from the same thing that happened to GH, oversaturation. That being said, some of the ideas you've mentioned have intrigued me. The customizable character and different "themes" that could influence how the game acts, responds, and feels, would be cool.

Long songs are fun, but I don't think that's actually a good thing. Full-length songs, especially of trance and electronic music, can be exceedingly long. Not to mention that even games like Dance Central, which is made my Harmonix, has cut the length of the songs. I just don't think playing a plastic guitar on the couch for 5 minutes is the same as standing up, jumping, and flailing around for 5 minutes. But on a personal note, I've always hated the "full length" songs of GH and RB. I get so bored with the song before I'm even half way through it. Every time I play I just think to myself, "Why didn't they shorten this up and only have me play the fun or good parts, like DDR or ITG does". So, for me, this isn't something that I think would be necessary. Having some long version songs is cool, but I don't think they all need to be.

---

i seriously hate all the "action" going on in the background while playing ddr ps3, i agree with lirodon, "keep it much like the classic game as possible" and also bring doubles back, what was konami thinking????

First of all, the idea that you can somehow mass convert players from Guitar Hero to DDR is kind of silly. The games don't really share that much in common besides the fact that they are music games, and there are notable other music games out there that replicate the GH experience more than DDR would.


There's a reason DDR has used short versions throughout its history with very few exceptions. Have you ever seen beginning to intermediate players play DDR? They get winded extremely easily. Hell, I get winded pretty damn fast too. While having a few choice songs as long versions (Xmixes, The Premium Pack DLC songs etc.) is good, I really don't think lack of long versions are keeping a great number of players out of the game.


The so-called "happy J-pop" interfaces are there because a large segment of the market for console DDR games are young children and families, not to mention the fact that Konami is looking to get a lot of promotion out of the incorporation of DDR in schools across the country. This is also why Konami has painstakingly avoided an ESRB rating higher than E10+.

Better advertising (and I guess better product placement) could help. I don't remember ever seeing any TV commercials for any DDR game, unlike Guitar Hero where I saw TV ads all the time. I'm not saying they just should just have DDR ads plastered everywhere, but having a few TV ads here and there and more ads in gaming magazines could probably help quite a bit.

It would also help if TV shows and movies that have DDR didn't make it look stupid. Nearly every instance I've seen just has people jumping around and swaying like a total idiot, and thanks to that characterization, impressionable people think DDR players are just epileptic apes or something.

---

Stick in Through the Fire and Flames and we'll have ddr console games sell like hot cakes and more kids playing Beginner 1's for Heavy Metal stuff.

Long versions, at least for any kind of arcade release, isn't a good idea. Waiting in line while someone plays three 7 minute songs is not fun. This happens a lot with ITG customs.

I actually "converted" a Rock Band player to ITG. He just needed it on reverse, and he could read the notes. For some reason, he found doubles easier than singles. That I will never understand, but he liked the game for the short time that he played it. He still plays stepmania though. He's tried DDR, but he can't read the notes because of the background.

But yeah, anyone who plays GH will either quit or move on to RB if they haven't already.

---

Long versions and Marathon songs would be the equivalent of 2 or 3 songs respectively. It would be insane to let people play three 7-minute songs in a row.

---

I used to be an avid GH/RB player a few years ago, during the time where DDR was at its' peak. I loved GH but I wish I would have had the equipment to play DDR/ITG at the time, since now it's not as popular.

---

Boss songs in DDR require a lot more than boss songs in Guitar Hero. You not only need to be good at the game, but you also need to have a LOT of physical endurance to complete even the easiest ones. It's easy to forget if you're actually capable of doing them, but there are people who have been playing for years and still don't have the strength to touch Max 300.

What we actually need is more focus on good level 9 charts. Charts that can challenge players who can't do boss songs.

Such a good point!

---

Why was this bumped? Don't do that...

---

Yup, try not to bump, and especially don't bump just to say "this is a good point". If you must bump, make sure you add your own point so there's an actual reason to read your post.

EDIT: Oh wait, you bumped it earlier than that one. My mistake, never mind. But still, make sure it's really worth bumping before you bump.

---

Guys you'll have to forgive me. I'm not much of a forum poster, so I'm kinda getting the feel. I never knew what the term "bump" meant. Wasn't trying to be annoying, sorry.

---

However, now that it's been bumped, i'd like to contribute an afterthought. DDR II actually ended up doing a few of the things I had proposed here. Not quite everything, but still, they got somewhere with that one.

DDR II ended up having long versions available. Did we complain? Not really, in fact some of us applauded having long versions of KOs too.

And DDR II also ended up cutting out all the gimmicks and bringing back Double.

Was this a step in the right direction? Yes, it was.

Yes it was. And on the topic at hand which I apparently missed entirely, that comes down to song selection/inclusion. As a GH/RB regular myself, I'd love to be playing stuff like Less Talk More Rokk, Thunder Kiss '65, Painkiller, etc. In fact, some of the songs like "Hello There" and "Master Exploder" don't even need editing, they're already around 2 minutes long. The heavier rock songs also have the higher BPM and musical sophistication to bring about the level of difficulty pro players are looking for.

Oh! But don't make too many super easy songs, like some kind of condescending trolls that think they need instructed on how to play. I'm pretty sure they'll get it just fine. When a couple of my friends (who somehow had played GH/RB, but never DDR...) crossed the bridge, all I had to show them was how to get to the options screen to adjust the speed and turn on reverse.

Soon as reverse was on, they were right in it. Go figure!


On another note, EXTREME 2 and DDR X's master modes were terrific teachers.

---

Long versions aren't only tiring, they take forever. Having them optional or in small doses is lovely, though. I was just ticked that in DDR II, when you pick "random," it defaults to the long version if there is one. As was posted, I also found myself waiting for the song to be over instead of really enjoying it. Long songs also make it a chore to play with friends. Sure, you get to be on there for like 5 minutes at a time, so does your friend... and the next person... and the next person... if you're a single-player kinda person, great, but multiplayer is one big factor that gives a game replay value for me.

Well, if Konami had released that beta game they ditched, we would have custom characters, but they didn't. I thought Guitar Hero had their own characters to choose from as well, didn't they...? DDR graphics in general are debatable... I think the X characters and stages were the last flashy and therefore the most appealing to me. If you really wanted custom characters, they could stamp your character onto the pop-ups and that'd be a little more immersive, maybe.

We'd have to ask... what made Guitar Hero so appealing to game fans? Honestly, I don't know... but one drastic difference would be the music selection. I kind of like what happened with Mario Mix, for example, where they took one DDR game and targeted one off-DDR audience, without trying to force the music onto the DDR hardcore players. So if they made a game for western liscenses, maybe that would be interesting...?

I feel like DLC, while customer friendly, can kill a series. They spend so much time adding more music to the store that customers kind of expect DLC after a while and they lose interest in new games, especially if they're really satisfied with how the game is and don't want to see new changes. Putting that kind of expectation in DDR players sounds kind of like a bad idea... as if we may never get a new game (at least not one for a while) after one with quality DLC. And fff, I'd rather blow $30 on a game with 70 songs than $70 on 70 new songs on top of the game I bought. I just don't understand DLC. xP

---

The first Ultramix game put a lot of the old Konami Originals as DLC. That way, they didn't take up space in the songlist, but were still there if someone wanted them.

Then again, the Ultramix games had strong songlists overall.

But then, for long versions, I've noticed something.

Dance Central does use cuts, except their cuts usually go down more to 2-3 minutes.

It feels like Just Dance typically uses top 40 pop, which is usually within the 3-4 minute range by default. Though, "Hey Boy Hey Girl" does feel longer than it actually is.

I actually think the edits are intended more to speed up just the arcade version, but were also applied to the home versions mainly so they could be arcade-accurate. Until DDR II came around, it felt like they just stuck with that pattern.