Crossover Console Challenges: Insight and feedback

Alright. So far, the "randomization" of the mix selections (other than winner's choice) is determined by 1 d20 ("blanks" are rerolled), sorted by region as follows:

JAPAN:

01. DDR BEST HITS [PS1]
02. DDR EXTRA MIX [PS1]
03. DDR 3rd Mix [PS1]
04. DDR 4th Mix [PS1]
05. DDR 5th Mix [PS1]
06. DDRMAX [PS2]
07. DDRMAX 2 [PS2]
08. DDR EXTREME [PS2]
09. DDR Party Collection [PS2]
10. DDR FESTIVAL [PS2]
11. DDR STR!KE [PS2]
12. DDR SuperNOVA [PS2]
13. DDR SuperNOVA 2 [PS2]
14. DDR X [PS2]
15. DDR X2 [PS2] (forthcoming... present backup is HP3, since it coincides somewhat with X2. Surprise?)
16. ---
17. ---
18. ---
19. ---
20. DDR S/S+ (global)

*Notice the conspicuous absence of X-Box related titles, here?

AMERICA:

01. DDR ULTRAMIX [XB]
02. DDR ULTRAMIX 2 [XB]
03. DDR ULTRAMIX 3 [XB]
04. DDR ULTRAMIX 4 [XB]
05. DDR KONAMIX [PS1]
06. DDRMAX [PS2]
07. DDRMAX 2 [PS2]
08. DDR EXTREME [PS2]
09. DDR EXTREME 2 [PS2]
10. DDR [PS1]
11. DDR Disney Channel Edition [PS2]
12. DDR SuperNOVA [PS2]
13. DDR SuperNOVA 2 [PS2]
14. DDR X [PS2]
15. DDR X2 [PS2]
16. DDR UNIVERSE (+DLC) [X360]
17. DDR UNIVERSE 2 (+DLC) [X360]
18. DDR UNIVERSE 3 (+DLC?) [X360]
19. ---
20. ---

EUROPE:

01. DS Unleashed [XB]
02. DS Unleashed 2 [XB]
03. DS Unleashed 3 [XB]
04. ---
05. DS Party Edition [PS1]
06. DS MegaMix [PS2]
07. DS Fever [PS2]
08. DS Fusion [PS2]
09. DS EuroMix [PS1]
10. DS MAX [PS2]
11. ---
12. DS SuperNOVA [PS2]
13. DS SuperNOVA 2* [PS2]
14. ---
15. ---
16. DS Universe (+DLC) [X360]
17. DS Universe 2 (+DLC) [X360]
18. ---
19. ---
20. ---

*Not sure what I'll do for Euro-challenge if this comes up, since no tracks on it are exclusives. At least according to the games DB here. I'll think of something, though.
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See, I'm also hoping to promote more inter-system gaming/competition as well and inter-regional, though with this working model, that can only happen to so much of an extent. Restructuring based on systems/consoles (PS championship, XB championship, etc.) would be tremendously skewed in favor of PS-related mixes, mostly due to the unbalanced Japanese console influence; and destroy the regional approach. Which doesn't seem to be catching on anyways - in spite of the "overwhelming popularity of import DDR versions." (In which, I *really* wonder about, now.) I was expecting to see at least a FEW participants in the JAPAN challenges, for that reason alone.

This also makes me wonder just how many users here have/play any of the Dancing Stage games at all, too. The potential to restructure is one thing I'd like a little user feedback regarding... Do you think "by system" would be better than "by region?" And perhaps feature a Wii version section as well (uh, do people here even play the Wii versions)? Any other restructuring ideas, or do you think this one is fine, and just needs some time to kick off? Or maybe just simplified and streamlined, based on versions we all have and play more often.

Another potential approach I considered was batching Euro/America titles together - and if not for how MegaMix/Fever played out, or that some titles (X, Unleashed 4, Universe 3) didn't get cut over, might work pretty decently. But it's also interesting to see how some of the licensed songs that DID cross over (looking at USA's SuperNOVA series, for instance), and how mixing them up would still play out (hence why "Wonderful Night" isn't part of the present America challenge - "As The Rush Comes" and "Block Rockin' Beats" for the same reason, but for correlating with STR!KE instead).

I do intend to keep the old-school PSX mixes involved, regardless. Their influence on tracklistings in later versions - especially the MAX/EXTREME era and ULTRAMIX/Unleashed series - is still rather noticable, and will make for some nice, clearly-themed playsets. 3rd Mix xx EXTREME 2 or ULTRAMIX/Unleashed 2 is inevitable, for instance. And it will be EPIC.

Also: Should JAPAN's section include 2nd Mix/CLUB Mix for Dreamcast, too? Or would "BEST HITS" cover that, for the most part?

Secondly, a reasonable time frame needs to be discussed. For the present challenge, I'm extending from 4 days to 10 days, allowing for an entire week of results to be included. Consequently, this will change it from being weekly to semi-weekly, but that will only make it easier to keep up with, so I see no issue with that, unless you'd *really* like a new challenge every week. I'm still closing it on a Tuesday, however - I'd still want to allow at least a whole day for the winner to submit their version request, and then it takes a little time to "Venn Diagram" what songs cross over between different versions (since there's no tool that does that for me). On occasion, NO songs do in any regions whatsoever... and then I get to start over again (for instance, 5th Mix [JP] xx SuperNOVA [USA]). That takes a bit of time, too.

Finally, how many songs do you think each regional challenge should have? See, whereas the Global challenge will vary greatly, based on a combination of mixes, I'm guessing it'll get pretty boring having the same regional challenges over and over again. And only one variable determines what that is. I was also considering nonstop/challenge courses to be part of that, since they're always title-specific... so something like "3 songs, 3 courses" might work out better, as well. What would you think about that - and how would that change for versions without those modes (looking at pre-UM4 XB titles, mostly - Wii ones too, if they're of any consequence)?


Basically, I just want to tweak this into being something everybody can enjoy, regardless of what region(s) they're playing or what console(s) they're on.
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I'd love to discuss more, but I have to get ready for work tonight. So I'll have to catch up tomorrow. I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys all think, though.

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I feel like you should change it up to have a PS and Xbox winner, and have challenges for the PS and Xbox players on this site that want to partake in the challenges.

Other than that i really don't see much of a problem with this, you should also allow the PS winners to choose the next mix on their respective console (Xbox winner chooses next Xbox title, etc.), for Global challenges you should try and find a mix that fits any of the PS2 and Xbox mixes that can be played...or something along those lines :/

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Well, there's only one hiccup in that plan, and that's songs that bridge between Japan's PS mixes, and USA's Ultramix/Universe series. For instance, WAKA LAKA and STILL IN MY HEART (MOMO MIX) coincide between DDRMAX2 (JP) and ULTRAMIX 4 (USA). A grip of EXTREME songs are exclusive (USA-wise) to ULTRAMIX 3 still (though IIRC, many of them also appear in DS Fusion), and ULTRAMIX 2 and it feature a fair number of Dancemania crossovers as well.

One idea came to mind, and that's to do 2 different sets of challenges, each open for the 10 days. Like, this weeks will be regional-based, and open through the 12th. But I'll still post an additional one next week, that's console-based and open for the following 10 days. Thus, it may feature (this PS-related version) xx (this X-Box related version). I may also use that week to do inter-region Wii crossovers (which may also feature X2/PS2, it's being half HP3-based), as well. I suppose the dice thing doesn't have to be entirely balanced between systems, does it?

X-Box can be determined by an 8-sider:

01. ULTRAMIX/Unleashed
02. ULTRAMIX/Unleashed 2
03. ULTRAMIX/Unleashed 3
04. ULTRAMIX 4
05. ULTRAMIX DLC (??)
06. UNIVERSE (+DLC)
07. UNIVERSE 2 (+DLC)
08. UNIVERSE 3 (+ DLC)

PS can be determined by a 6 + another:

01. JAPAN region (PS1)
02. OTHER regions (PS1)
03. JAPAN region (PS2)
04. AMERICA region (PS2)
05. EUROPE region (PS2)
06. DDR S/S+ (??)

Wii, being it's own world, will probably take a different approach, like 2 6-siders (??):

01. AMERICA HP
02. AMERICA HP2
03. AMERICA HP3
04. AMERICA (DDR X2)
05. AMERICA Disney Grooves
06. DDR S/S+

01. JAPAN HP
02. JAPAN FuruFuru Party
03. JAPAN Music Fit
04. EUROPE HP
05. EUROPE HP2
06. EUROPE Winx Club (Does that have any coinciding tracks?)

(In fact... don't they all use identical tracklists for the most part, unlike the main series? I'm not sure how inter-region Wii titles work, tbh.)

EDIT: Looking back on that, Wii might be better off... gah! I'm also not sure if any Disney Grooves songs cross over - I think a couple may be in Music Fit - grr. And I think there's a few songs that are in JP/EURO titles that aren't in USA ones, huh? That's going to make Wii-world kinda weird, isn't it? Maybe a 12- sider, twice? o.O

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How bout making one thread for all the crossover challenges?

Makes things a lot simpler, don't you think?

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Would it? I guess I could juggle the two present challenges (at any given time) on the first post, like a news post; and hope it doesn't just get all buried and mixed up. Maybe two posts would work best - one for the regional challenges (updated every other week) and one for the console ones (updated on the other week) - that way, there isn't a gazillion pages full of mixed results to sift through. (And two weeks of them apiece, to boot!). Trying to juggle both sets within a single thread could be tremendously "unsimple."

I do like leaving the older ones open for people to play for fun, though. I guess that isn't important, though - since people will play the newer ones instead, anyways.

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I like where this is going. any who a few things though

DDR Disney Mix/Rave [PS1] and DDR Mario Mix [GCN] are they going to be included?

I think DDR 2nd Mix and Club Version should be included, even though I only have 2nd mix. even if someone don't have 2nd mix they should be able to do it with 1st mix iirc most songs are from 1st mix. dunno about club version, cause some of the songs can be found in other DDR Mixes.

If you want to do separate threads for the different challenges, i think that would be a good idea so there wouldn't be much confusion in tallying up the results.

3 songs and 3 courses... I think that might be do able, but if no one wants to do courses I think each challenge should consist of 5 songs with the 5th and final song being a red/boss song.

Also Winx Club is so shit I think the only person on this site who owns it is Al. And he kind of had to for completion purposes.

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I know that this is DDR and all, but shouldn't this be under the forum games category?

Disney Mix/Rave:

I thought about that too... but fact is, there's only what... about 5 songs that cross over to anything but other Disney's Rave titles? Even at best, this would mean a "Global Challenge" of only 1 or 2 songs if included; and *all* of those already coincide between other, different versions anyways. So, say Midnite Blaze comes up in 4th Mix (JP) xx DDRMAX (USA) for instance... there's no reason you couldn't play that song on Disney Mix and have it count. But there's no point in say, DDRMAX (JP) vs. Disney Mix (USA) - any songs that would work would do so in another group - unless (which might be cool on a special occasion/holiday) as a special Disney Rave/Mix challenge week.

Mario Mix:

As for Mario Mix - cool game and all, but what songs coexist between that version and anything else? Any at all? Again, might be a "special occasion" kind of challenge. But I don't even know who/how many users here still HAVE a GameCube, let alone MarioMix.

DC 2nd/CLUB Mix:

I was (for the most part) including the Club Mix songs as unique to the other versions, since the PSX version of it has to go through a buggy Disc Swap mode to work right (which BTW, I never got it to). Then there's the whole "first version" and "another version" for 9-10 of the tracks, and how to work that out (I say make either one valid). Another excuse is to avoid a "Global Challenge" that consists of nothing BUT Club Mix songs... I suppose it's workable, though. Main reason I left Club Version out, was because with KONAMIX, that's pretty much the only "semi-exclusive" material for a regional challenge there, and it could also contribute more variety to titles like ULTRAMIX and Party Collection that also feature them.

BEST HITS (PSX) has all of 1st Mix besides TRIP MACHINE and STRICTLY BUSINESS, all on a 3rd Mix engine (much like DC 2nd Mix), and over half of 2nd Mix on it. Any KO's not appearing on that from 2nd Mix are on the 3rd Mix disc too, like the PYFIM/B2U/MIB remixes... which pretty much leaves LOVE, BOYS, and HERO as the only songs left out. Oh wait! And TUBTHUMPING/STRICTLY BUSINESS. (I suppose *that* could make it worth including, huh?) And like the Disney Mix concept above - you can play for results on it, anyways. So if there's a BEST HITS xx (anything) or 3rd Mix xx (anything) challenge, you can record results from a DC 2nd Mix/Club Mix, and it would be considered valid.

Boss Songs in challenges:

Boss songs will eventually be Global/Crossover material... it's inevitable, just a matter of time/luck... but I suppose I could random-select one of them to be included in regional challenges as well. For MAX titles, I'll probably consider high-grade 9's as well (HVAM, for instance), so we don't all get burned out playing MAX 300 for every DDRMAX challenge. (Even though it's clearly too cool a song to get burned out on.) How many of you think every challenge needs at least one boss song?

I like the 5-songs-per-challenge idea so far, though. Maybe along with a choice *between* 3 courses to add to that (IE: you can only count/compare one course's score between them all, though).

Forum Games:

I thought that was for stuff like "xxxity xx the person above you" or word association games, stuff like that. o.O I guess CCC is technically borderline, but it's directly DDR-related. Mods? What be sayin' you?

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This may be unnecessary, but just for kicks, I'm gonna do a random sampling of 5 challenges, each type, and post tracklist results. These aren't current/valid challenges yet - but just to give us an idea of potential outcomes with each system. Back in a bit with that. (I'll link it offsite in my LJ.)

And HEERE'S THE OUTCOMES!! One approach DOES clearly work FAR better than the other, it turns out. Unless maybe I'm doing it wrong...

Hmm... maybe, since I'm dealing with 48 versions (on the nose, practically), perhaps another approach can/should be taken? If I could find a way to group it fairly to (region + region + region + ???)... or maybe batching similar US+Euro titles *could* be a valid option, somehow...

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(2:30 am or so)

After a little deliberation, I've elected to pop out some lesser-friendly mixes for crossovers, and stick to a core 36 for now:

JAPAN set:

01. DDRMAX
02. DDRMAX 2
03. EXTREME
04. STR!KE
05. FESTIVAL
06. SuperNOVA 2
07. DDR X
08. BEST HITS/2nd Mix
09. EXTRA MIX
10. 3rd Mix
11. 4th Mix
12. 5th Mix

*SuperNOVA omitted, as it only correlates well with SN1/SN2 and ULTRAMIX/Unleashed 1. If appropriate, and the set is broken, it will be written in.

AMERICA set:

01. DDRMAX
02. DDRMAX 2
03. EXTREME
04. EXTREME 2
05. SuperNOVA
06. SuperNOVA 2
07. Disney Channel Edition
08. DDR
09. KONAMIX
10. ULTRAMIX
11. ULTRAMIX 2
12. ULTRAMIX 3

*X and UNIVERSE series omitted for similar reasons, though I'm tempted to leave UNI 2 in there. X will replace a PS title if ever appropriate, and UNIVERSE games are backups for the corresponding ULTRAMIX games. Also, I REALLY wish Universe/ULTRAMIX 4 songs were really more universal, but I can't do anything about that.

EUROPE set:

01. MegaMix
02. Fever
03. Fusion
04. MAX
05. SuperNOVA
06. SuperNOVA 2
07. Party Collection (JP)*
08. EuroMix
09. Party Edition
10. Unleashed
11. Unleashed 2
12. Unleashed 3

*Okay, so it's a ~little~ unfair. But so's real DDR, unfortunately, and this had to stick somewhere. I figured since it corresponded with songs found more often on US/JP titles, it'd be best featured here. Well, either this, or EXTREME (JP); but that would still work better with Euro titles than PC would.

Besides... all else fails, a winner can make a request outside of these choices, after all. ;) These are just the most challenge-friendly tracklists, so far.

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Make it EuroMix2 AC. They're bloody everywhere.

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Screw lesser known mixes like Winx Club or Disney Groove or Mario Mix.

something to consider.

Bonus points for using any mods.

Give 1.5x players or 2x an advantage over 1x players? Why? If a person does a good score with crazy mods, then they get extra bragging rights for it. I mean, techinally, you could "freeze off" an old-school song with no freezes, and give yourself an edge. Finally... I'm trying to keep this simple and straightforward - doing that will lead into stuff like "8x should give you proportionally more points than 5x does" and crap like that. And a LOT more math.

If math is that fun to you, you can do that without DDR attached to it. ;)

Now, for something more formalized and elitistly competitive, then yes. What I'd suggest doing there though, is limit it ONLY to and charts, and then assign a tangible, stackable bonus amount (+/-) to each particular modifier. And for that - and the kind of judging it requires - you would have to include Marvelous seperately and require a YouTube performance of "Watch and Dance" mode (thereby limiting it to PS2 titles, EXTREME 2-USA or newer already), with EyeToy pointed at you on a pad in the BG. Special seizure-inducing danceclub lighting or character wardrobes* is optional.

*and chances are, accuracy and variety of that will reflect in your final score, as well.

BUT THAT IS NOT THIS.

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