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DDR Series Official Arcade Re-rating Project 20F, 10F

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Post #1 · Posted at 2021-04-10 11:28:20pm 3.8 months ago

Offline SomberShroud
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DDR A Songlist with Official DDR Releases from DDR 1st Mix to DDR A, Re-rated all 10F songs to 20F and rated back down to 10F.
DDR Arcade 20F V1.3 Here
So I just realized how off some of my ratings for 3-9 footers are, a lot of songs are over-rated by 1, gonna re-rate them again
Update: Finished 2nd Re-rating of 1st-5th Mix V1.3 now up with 2nd Re-Ratings
Currently working on: MAX

DDR Spinoffs coming soon.
Stay Positive

Post #2 · Posted at 2021-05-28 02:06:50am 2.2 months ago

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Hmm... I am interested in this, but a few things.

I'm not sure I fully understand the point of re-rating the songs that already have X ratings.

I stumbled onto this when I was thinking about, what kind of methodology to undertake in re-rating DDR ratings to X ratings.

I would really like to know more about what methodology you did use... I feel like, an ideal situation would take, the original rating, the notes per second, the groove radar ratings, as well as just... a personal feel about, if the chart has any weird trickiness that should affect it's rating.

I remember there was a thread about this a long time ago, and they had a spreadsheet, but the link is long dead.

But I definitely think, a project to re-rate the classic songs with X difficulties, would be a good thing. But a methodology that worked would need to be established first...

Post #3 · Posted at 2021-06-03 03:38:40pm 2 months ago

Offline SomberShroud
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Good Question, I've studied a lot of songs, watching charts uploaded to YouTube for fun and decided to re-rate the songs since no one has done this for over 20 years and I refuse to deal with that.

There is a formula to the ratings from the DDR-X scale and and I'm using the re-rated songs in Pre-DDR X and newer songs as a reference and seeing patterns as to what makes a rating that level, like the BPM to how skillful it is to pull off, to how many 8th and 16th notes are put into it.

I think I'm pretty confident in my 2nd re-ratings that they are close to how Konami would rate them. Its kind of hard to describe what the formula is, you just kind of have to watch all of one difficulty level to understand the feel of it.

There are some songs that I'm still confused about the ratings but they are low level songs so I don't think Konami is bothering to re-rate the low tier songs (1-5).

Also I decided to re-rate the DDR X/X2 songs from the console version and songs that didn't make it to future releases because they rated some songs WAY off and had they stuck around, they would definitely be re-rated (keep in mind this was back when they thought Paranoia Survivor ESP was a 14).
Stay Positive

Post #4 · Posted at 2021-06-04 07:27:30pm 1.9 months ago

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Mm, you definitely changed the ratings on songs from fairly recent mixes; unless you consider X3 an old release...

I've been trying to do an experiment where I use... the only data I could easily access, the NPS [average notes per second], to try to estimate it, but I think this is a bad way to estimate difficulty. Hypothetically, 2 songs can have the same NPS, but one could have very fast streams but then long periods of no notes, while the other has a more moderate pace.

I really think the best things to try to take into account when estimating difficulty (especially on lower difficulties) would be the reaction time required (ie, finding the shortest time between any 2 notes in a chart) and also whether those notes are the same note or a different note.

This seems like something that, if a software existed to scan for it, would be relatively easy, but I'm not a programmer...

Other things I really wish I could take into account are the Groove Radar values, but it seems like even StepMania's calculations on those differ from official DDR, so it's not something reliable.

This is something I'd be really interested in doing, figuring out the data and looking for patterns, but I just don't have the software to do it.

EDIT: Did some more experiments and I'm not even seeing a strong correlation between reaction time, as weird "tricky" steps can throw off the difficulty as well.

I know it isn't going to be a strong science no matter what, but... well, I'm open to better ideas.

Post #5 · Posted at 2021-06-04 07:58:50pm 1.9 months ago

Offline n00b_saib0t
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Mm, you definitely changed the ratings on songs from fairly recent mixes; unless you consider X3 an old release...
According to the google machine it turns 10 in November so...
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Post #6 · Posted at 2021-06-04 08:06:59pm 1.9 months ago

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I think if you want to re-rate a chart from X2, you should instead be looking at the chart and trying to figure out why it was rated what it was.

Post #7 · Posted at 2021-06-04 08:31:02pm 1.9 months ago

Offline n00b_saib0t
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Quote: The T
I think if you want to re-rate a chart from X2, you should instead be looking at the chart and trying to figure out why it was rated what it was.
I'll give you one guess as to why people contest some of the ratings.
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Post #8 · Posted at 2021-06-04 08:50:50pm 1.9 months ago

Offline eataninja
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Quote: The T
I think if you want to re-rate a chart from X2, you should instead be looking at the chart and trying to figure out why it was rated what it was.

That's hard, though. You start asking questions like "why was TimeHollow ever a 10?" or "why is the same style of 180 bpm stream chart rated anywhere from an 11 to a 14, depending on the mix" or "what are they smoking when they rate Beginner charts?" DDR charts are clearly rated by very different people with varying interpretations of their difficulty scale, and it shows.

Post #9 · Posted at 2021-06-05 12:31:30am 1.9 months ago

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Quote: eataninja
Quote: The T
I think if you want to re-rate a chart from X2, you should instead be looking at the chart and trying to figure out why it was rated what it was.

That's hard, though. You start asking questions like "why was TimeHollow ever a 10?" or "why is the same style of 180 bpm stream chart rated anywhere from an 11 to a 14, depending on the mix" or "what are they smoking when they rate Beginner charts?" DDR charts are clearly rated by very different people with varying interpretations of their difficulty scale, and it shows.

I definitely understand what you're saying, but I've been looking at how Beginner charts are rated and...

Like there are many different types of "2"s, many different types of "3"s, but. I haven't personally seen any that I disagree with; there are absolutely some 3s that play radically different from other 3s, though. But they're all 3s.

(There are only a handful of 1s in existence, and all of them seem to be "extremely low NPS").

Fwiw, I've been trying my own hand at... just, taking notes about charts as I play them to try to, find patterns about why things are rated the way they are, and rate Classic charts based on my personal view. And once I get more done on it, I'll probably compare my results to SomberShroud's.

Unfortunately, what I can actually provide is pretty limited, since I'm currently a Light player and currently max out at difficulty 6. But I hope my point of view can help rate Light charts more accurately.

Post #10 · Posted at 2021-06-05 12:44:01am 1.9 months ago

Offline n00b_saib0t
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Quote: The T
I think if you want to re-rate a chart from X2, you should instead be looking at the chart and trying to figure out why it was rated what it was.

That's hard, though. You start asking questions like "why was TimeHollow ever a 10?" or "why is the same style of 180 bpm stream chart rated anywhere from an 11 to a 14, depending on the mix" or "what are they smoking when they rate Beginner charts?" DDR charts are clearly rated by very different people with varying interpretations of their difficulty scale, and it shows.
I bought a PS2 again yesterday, and DDRX2 because apparently I hate myself, and I literally laughed out loud when I saw and remembered that A Brighter Day challenge used to be a 10.
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Post #11 · Posted at 2021-06-05 12:45:29am 1.9 months ago

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Yeah, it does seem like the US X and X2 have nonstandard X ratings; the Japanese version does not have these issues.

Post #12 · Posted at 2021-06-05 12:53:23am 1.9 months ago

Offline n00b_saib0t
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Yeah, it does seem like the US X and X2 have nonstandard X ratings; the Japanese version does not have these issues.
It’s been so long since I owned a Japanese PS2 and the DDR games that went with it that I don’t remember much about the ratings for X JP CS except that Paranoia Survivor was changed from 14 to 15. I was fine with the original rating but I’m not really bothered by the rerating.
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Post #13 · Posted at 2021-07-16 05:56:03am 2.5 weeks ago

Offline SomberShroud
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Heads up, 2nd Re-Ratings for 1st-5th Mix is Live.

To The T, go ahead and Analyze away. even though I believe it would take a VERY long time to make an accurate formula since you'd have to make a formula for every bpm range within 10 BPM of each other and then how much stamina, Voltage, Stream, etc. also did you know jumps can act like Alternative 8th notes (in some cases) and I don't know the exact Ratio for that so good luck figuring that out. Also I'm able to do 15 footers but you don't need to be that good to rate properly, however I think you should be able to do at least 13 footers in order to understand how much stamina is required to pull something off.

To n00b_saib0t, The Original Rating of Paranoia Survivor Max (14) is NOT fine. If you look at Samurai Shogun vs. Master Ninja's ESP. a similar BPM chart. that has more simple 3 step patterns (drills) with more technical patterns spread out (Even more than Paranoia Survivor) that are not long enough to make it a 15 (but a tough 14). Paranoia Survivor on the other hand has more simple long patterns and a really long technical pattern at the end that makes it a 15 in my eyes from a stamina and voltage Standpoint. Even Norepinephrine ESP is just slow enough to make it a borderline 14 with its long Crossover pattern. I think that's a better borderline 14 than Paranoia Survivor. Keep in mind, the number rating is not based on stamina but on skill (Samurai Shogun vs. Master Ninja takes more stamina than Paranoia Survivor but its still a 14 on skill alone.)

Anyways I found out a pattern that weirds me out and maybe the community can help me figure this out.
Konami has been rating Doubles differently from SIngles, like take Qipchaq for example, they re-rated the ESP to 12 but left the double unchanged, when they are identical charts. there are also a few other songs that have this weird mis-match of ratings even with identical charts that the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that maybe there has to be crossovers in doubles to make it the same rating as singles? Idk.
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Post #14 · Posted at 2021-07-16 11:48:03am 2.5 weeks ago

Offline xRGTMx
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Years ago, I actually made some spreadsheets for X-Ratings for various mixes, from MAX to EXTREME, including console releases of those mixes. I wonder if these will help out in any way!

DDRMAX
DDRMAX2
DDR EXTREME
DDR SuperNOVA
DDR SuperNOVA2

I'll have to look through these again and make ratings changes from A20 and A20 PLUS, though. Applied the changes.
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Post #15 · Posted at 2021-07-16 12:22:21pm 2.5 weeks ago

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Thank you xRGTMx! i'll cross examine your ratings with mine when I re-rate them. Cool
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Post #16 · Posted at 2021-07-16 12:44:23pm 2.5 weeks ago

Offline eataninja
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Is it possible to make a Google Drive folder for these? I think it would be easier to download updates that way.

I've also dabbled in re-ratings on and off myself, so if you want any help with the spin-off games when you get to those, let me know.

Post #17 · Posted at 2021-07-16 12:48:26pm 2.5 weeks ago

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My Google Drive Folder is full, But I'm only gonna update it like once or twice from now anyway. then i'll start working on the spinoffs as soon as I finish this. Currently debating whether to include DDR 2ndMix Club version in with the regular 2ndMix. I should since this project is about more content; and I don't know where else I would put it (also would have to make another jacket for that).
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Post #18 · Posted at 2021-07-16 01:19:48pm 2.5 weeks ago

Offline eataninja
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Quote: SomberShroud
My Google Drive Folder is full, But I'm only gonna update it like once or twice from now anyway. then i'll start working on the spinoffs as soon as I finish this. Currently debating whether to include DDR 2ndMix Club version in with the regular 2ndMix. I should since this project is about more content; and I don't know where else I would put it (also would have to make another jacket for that).

Club Mix should be its own thing since the charts are so different from any mainstream mix. Same with SOLO (aside from the 4th Mix crossovers).

Post #19 · Posted at 2021-07-16 03:36:47pm 2.5 weeks ago

Offline n00b_saib0t
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To n00b_saib0t, The Original Rating of Paranoia Survivor Max (14) is NOT fine. If you look at Samurai Shogun vs. Master Ninja's ESP. a similar BPM chart. that has more simple 3 step patterns (drills) with more technical patterns spread out (Even more than Paranoia Survivor) that are not long enough to make it a 15 (but a tough 14). Paranoia Survivor on the other hand has more simple long patterns and a really long technical pattern at the end that makes it a 15 in my eyes from a stamina and voltage Standpoint. Even Norepinephrine ESP is just slow enough to make it a borderline 14 with its long Crossover pattern. I think that's a better borderline 14 than Paranoia Survivor. Keep in mind, the number rating is not based on stamina but on skill (Samurai Shogun vs. Master Ninja takes more stamina than Paranoia Survivor but its still a 14 on skill alone.)
The idea that ratings have nothing to do with stamina is laughable. If stamina had nothing to do with it then straight forward charts like Max 300 wouldn't be 15s. Max 300 has been somewhat of a "benchmark" song for almost 20 years now (6th Mix will be 20 years old in October), it was the 10, not because it's technical but because it's the test of stamina that doesn't require anything technical. As such, Max 300 is now the 15. That song is hard because it requires a certain degree of stamina, not because it requires technical skill.

And lets be real, Paranoia Survivor, despite being more technical, is not as hard as Max 300. Even back in the Extreme days a lot of players were still pushing for that Max 300 milestone after passing three other 10s (Bag, Sakura, and Paranoia Survivor). Like, at my size I'm pretty damn close to passing Paranoia Survivor at 780k but I can't reliably make it half way through Max 300. Back when I was in better shape I was AAing Paranoia Survivor so I know how to play it, and I've AAed Max 300 so I know how to play that too, and when stamina became a problem for me the more technical song is actually significantly easier. Either Paranoia Survivor is a 14 and Max 300 is a 15 or Max 300 is the upper echelon of 15s and Paranoia Survivor is your entry level 15, both ratings work.

Plus when people here make the argument for Maxx Unlimited being a 15 instead of a 16, now the argument is being made that Maxx Unlimited is the same difficulty as Paranoia fucking Survivor? Nah. The 14 fit. The 15 fits too, but the 14 was fine.
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Post #20 · Posted at 2021-07-16 04:16:18pm 2.5 weeks ago

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Quote: n00b_saib0t
The idea that ratings have nothing to do with stamina is laughable. If stamina had nothing to do with it then straight forward charts like Max 300 wouldn't be 15s. Max 300 has been somewhat of a "benchmark" song for almost 20 years now (6th Mix will be 20 years old in October), it was the 10, not because it's technical but because it's the test of stamina that doesn't require anything technical. As such, Max 300 is now the 15. That song is hard because it requires a certain degree of stamina, not because it requires technical skill.

And lets be real, Paranoia Survivor, despite being more technical, is not as hard as Max 300. Even back in the Extreme days a lot of players were still pushing for that Max 300 milestone after passing three other 10s (Bag, Sakura, and Paranoia Survivor). Like, at my size I'm pretty damn close to passing Paranoia Survivor at 780k but I can't reliably make it half way through Max 300. Back when I was in better shape I was AAing Paranoia Survivor so I know how to play it, and I've AAed Max 300 so I know how to play that too, and when stamina became a problem for me the more technical song is actually significantly easier. Either Paranoia Survivor is a 14 and Max 300 is a 15 or Max 300 is the upper echelon of 15s and Paranoia Survivor is your entry level 15, both ratings work.

Plus when people here make the argument for Maxx Unlimited being a 15 instead of a 16, now the argument is being made that Maxx Unlimited is the same difficulty as Paranoia fucking Survivor? Nah. The 14 fit. The 15 fits too, but the 14 was fine.
I guess I should clarify my statement on stamina. Stamina DOES effect the rating of the level but not to a significant extent to Technicality like Night of nights Ryu☆Remix is an intensely draining 16 for its length but its still a 16 with the simple patterns, now if you were to add like 50-100 more notes in there I'm sure it could be considered a 17 just by stamina alone, like Max 360 ESP was rated an 18 on stamina and the speed at which you must perform those simple patterns but if you were to play literally any other 18 the technicality's of those steps combined with the speed would be significantly more difficult than you anticipate. You've got to look at the whole picture (also who tf is saying Maxx unlimited ESP is a 15? lol)

funny that you should say that max 300 is harder than paranoia survivor (I do believe it is harder and that it is in the higher echelon of 15s in my eyes but I haven't trained enough in crossovers so PS turns out to be harder for me than Max 300). I went to the arcade after months of being out of practice for 15s (I had passed Max 300 and Paranoia Survivor before) When I went to try and pass them again I could only pass Max 300 to the end because that ones only mostly stamina based with only 1 crossover, I made it all the way until the ending of Paranoia Survivor then I run out of stamina for the ending part (that always gets me) I guess Crossovers are my weakness, I think technicality plays a bigger role than stamina and then there's always the argument of chaos steps like when people say "Pluto isn't a 14" and I'm like "well it doesn't have the stamina of a 14 but technicality wise the memorization of the stops and odd rhythm makes it a 14. of course if you remember all the stops perfectly its easy but that can be said about all the songs, given enough training on memorization, stamina. etc. lets just say you're not getting a perfect full combo on the first time attempt.

I also think you believe the gap between what a 15 is, to be smaller than it actually is. Have you seen Life is Beautiful ESP compared to TRIP MACHINE (xac nanoglide mix)? they appear to be VERY big in gap but that's only because you're comparing Borderline Difficulties, they are both 16s but they are radically different in difficulty.
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