Z-I-v Simfile Tycoon '18 [Thanks for participating!]

I'm in, but only if No Bemani/Rhythm Game songs becomes set in stone as a rule. It's not that I dislike them, it's more that I have seen *most* of them done to death via various packs. They've always been that way, and I want to hear new songs, not just *another* rendition of "Lion Suki".

I'm in!

Even though I'm not participating I still would like to inject my opinion into this "No BEMANI Songs" rule discussion.

To be frank, I don't really feel it will solve anything, as while it has noble intentions it doesn't solve much when you think about it. If I'm a person that wants to submit a Camelia or kors k or BlackY song all I have to do is trudge through the tens of albums these artists have but out to find a good song, cut it down, and submit it. All you're really doing is making people who are absolutely comitted to submitting songs from set artists do a little more work to submit that song and getting "Distorted Space" instead of "Chirality".

You also have a bit of practicality involved in this. BEMANI songs are used a lot because they are less work. You don't have to worry about cutting a song, making it pretty plug-and-play and if you're new to making simfiles that's practically a god-send. While this is a Simfile Competition, cutting out people who are just getting into simfiles because they don't have the experience to cut music seems just a bit close minded. I do understand we have a "Request Music Cuts" thread, but there is a small chance the people who cut music for others in that thread could have their lives get busy and if someone is waiting for a song cut and it doesn't happen they are SOL.

Lastly, while for now we're saying No BEMANI is it going to stay there? Do we also disallow CROSS BEATS music? Lanota? GROOVE COASTER? There's a ton of rhythm games out there so signalling out one group because it's the most popular is frankly a little biased. Yes, it sucks that you have to play ANOTHER "ICARUS" simfile, but there's no rule saying you have to vote for it. I personally feel it's a little rude to not vote on a song just because it has 100 simfiles made of it already instead of based on how the stepchart is, but at the end of the day the votes you cast are yours to make and there's rule that dictates how you pick your votes.

tl;dr: NO to the "NO BEMANI Songs" rule opinion.

---

Not really to both points: it's been confirmed elsewhere that other rhythm games will be safe, and you gotta see it from a numbers viewpoint. Groove Coaster has 95 originals to date, Pump it Up has somewhere around 200, Cross Beats has around 150, I don't know about Lanota but I don't think it has many. BEMANI has literal thousands of original songs; you've got about 400 from DDR, 1000 from pop'n, 600 from IIDX, 200 from jubeat, 200 from REFLEC, and hundreds more from the various dead franchises and smaller side projects. Whenever these contests happen, that's why BEMANI stuff always seems to flood the selection: not only are they easy to make but they also have the numbers game on lock.

^ I'm also willing to help out with song cuts if anybody needs help. Just send me a PM with a link to your song (use google drive, dropbox, etc.).

---

I feel like people participating in this contest offering to cut songs to be submitted by other people to this contest is a conflict of interest and therefore shouldn't be allowed.

I'll play!!

Well as long as the person chooses which song is to be cut, it's fine. I don't see a problem. It's not like someone will just be sending random cuts to other people to use in the contest. I'm pretty sure only people who are having trouble cutting a song will ask.

---

I agree with this.

Hmm... I'm intrigued! I think I'll crawl out from under my lurking-rock to participate in this one.

Put me down in mild support of the no-BEMANI rule. I don't have as much experience in this community as most of you, but I'm not convinced that there'll be a rush for the BEMANI tracks at auction, especially given steppers like chewi who will be deliberately avoiding them. My main concern would be steppers leaning too heavily on the rhythms/patterns used in the original game. If the rule is scrapped, though, I wouldn't be too broken up about it.

There is one rule I do have a stronger opinion on, though:


I see two potential scenarios for abuse here (let's use "Alice" and "Bob" as our example abusers):

- As soon as the Round 1 skeleton list comes out, Alice bids her entire $20 on the song she wants the most. Nobody else bids on the song because they know they will not receive it. Alice doesn't actually want to blow all her $ on the first song, but since there were no other bidders on the song, she gets it for $1, with no competition for the song even if it would've been highly in demand.

- Bob monitors the contest spreadsheet, and places a bid that matches the highest bid placed by each of the other *steppers* (not necessarily the highest bid for each *song*; one stepper may be the highest bidder for multiple songs). Bob might not want half the songs involved, but since the other steppers bid first, he doesn't have to worry about getting any of these songs. He is placing these bids for the sole purpose of forcing as many steppers as possible to pay full price for their songs, as opposed to the price of the second-highest honest bid, while he gets a discount unless someone uses the same tactics against him. Bob's bidding could be a defense against Alice's tactics, but Bob's tactics would be impossible for honest bidders to defend against under the current rules.

I'd recommend changing the rule so that the highest bidder pays their own bid for a song, rather than the second-highest. This would force Alice to bid what she'd actually be willing to pay for the song, and Bob couldn't place malicious bids just to manipulate the prices that other steppers pay.

Rule quibbles aside, though, I'm excited for this! I think I'll prefer the pacing of this contest to SC16 (which was the last thing I did here), since we're not stepping our own files and rating other files at the same time. I know the auction system adds a little more work to do, but I still think the time commitment will be easier for me to manage.

---

Birdwards' post is super smart, lemme just chime in on it though.

The big question is if the bids at the time are public or private, if they're private and aren't revealed until the end of the period I don't think any of the issues matter because you can't react to other people's bids. So in that case, everything should be fine as it is.

However, if they're public, here are my thoughts:

RE the second thing: usually in auctions in real life, you have to bid higher than the last bid, not equal, so I think making that clearer would make it so that that issue is a non issue.

Frankly though, I agree with his action on the first, that you have to pay your own highest bid, realistically bids would tick up by 1 at a time anyway so there shouldn't be a ton of extra cost as opposed to the current rules.

As an added bonus, paying your own highest bid makes bidding the same like his second scenario pointless, so I think that should probably go into place, or discussed further if the bids are public in the bidding phase.

---

You have no idea how long I spent brainstorming this, but I can tell you that there is not a problem. The important thing is that all bids are private, and the only information that is revealed is the current highest bidder, and the price of the next highest bid.

I'll use your example. Bob is trying to make Alice pay maximum dollar without getting the skeleton.
The current song's bids are:
Alice - $20
On the spreadsheet, it shows up as Alice - $1 (since this is the value that she would pay if no new bids were made)

Now Bob bids $1 so the bids are
Alice - $20
Bob - $1
But nothing changes, it still shows Alice - $1 on the spreadsheet.

Then, Bob figures he can bid $2. So now its:
Alice - $20
Bob - $2
The spreadsheet shows Alice - $2.

Well, Bob keeps on increasing his bid, one by one...

Eventually Bob gets to $20
Alice - $20
Bob - $20
The spreadsheet shows Alice - $20.

Bob has no idea that Alice has bid $20, so he increases his bid once more.
Alice - $20
Bob - $21
And now Bob must face his punishment: The spreadsheet shows Bob - $21. Alice no longer has the highest bid, and Bob is stuck paying too much for a simfile he didn't want.

So there is no problem after all.

This is not a problem since all bids are private, and the only information being given out is that Alice is the highest bidder, and currently, she would pay $1 for the simfile. Others would have no idea that her maximum bid is $20, so they would still bid.


Well, this would be a problem if people incremented their bids one by one.
For example, let's use the above situation with Bob and Alice.
When Bob bids $1, the spreadsheet would instead show Alice - $2.

Then after Bob bids $19, the spreadsheet would show Alice - $20.

Finally, Bob bids $20, and the spreadsheet does not change: Alice - $20.

Bob now knows that Alice bid $20 and now Alice must pay full price when Bob had no interest in receiving the skeleton in the first place.

---

Oh, it's the *second-highest* bid shown on the spreadsheet! -5 reading comprehension points for me. Yeah, that would defeat both Alice's and Bob's tactics pretty soundly. Thanks for the clarification!

One question I forgot to ask: will steppers be DQed for a round if they don't vote in it (like in SC)?

---

If you do not vote, your points from your simfile will not be added to the leaderboard, so essentially, you will be DQed from that round. However, you will still receive any points from the auction in that round.

---

Dabusuteppu ha osukidesuka?

Soredeha, gaba ha osukidesuka?

---

ban this sick filth

---

Looks like someone got unbanned
So I have a proposal to make. Previously the backup pile was with each skeleton having an equal opportunity to be picked. However, I feel that someone who submits 20 backups would have significant knowledge and influence of the backup pile compared to someone with only 1 or 2 submissions, and they would also have more influence on the contest, which, to me, is unfair.

I think it would be much fairer if each person started off with an equal opportunity of one of their skeletons being picked. That way, each person will have a similar amount of skeletons being taken from the backup pile, so no one person has any advantage. This would also prevent someone from submitting a whole bunch of cheesed skeletons to punish people for vetoing.

The precise factor of which a certain file would be selected is 1/t,
where t is the total number of skeletons they have submitted to the backup pile.

Using a situation where Blue has only submitted 3 skeletons and where Orange has submitted 20 skeletons:


I am likely going to implement this, but I would like to hear your thoughts as well.

---

I'm here to kick bubblegum and chew ass. And I'm AAAAAALL out of ass.

---

Lmao, well I'll sign you up then

Also, I updated my previous post with the correct information.

---

I like the backup pile idea.