Post #41 · Posted at 2009-08-27 11:46:10am 15.8 years ago
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Flashing 10 was an aesthetic move, nothing more.
They reduced by an order of magnitude and added two decimal places. I'm hoping they reserve the rating 5.73 for the most mind-crushingly hard songs, as an homage to themselves and also to mess with new players who don't get the 573 joke.
Quote: silenttype01
I believe they recently changed the rating system by adding a decimal for the next installment of GF/DM.
They reduced by an order of magnitude and added two decimal places. I'm hoping they reserve the rating 5.73 for the most mind-crushingly hard songs, as an homage to themselves and also to mess with new players who don't get the 573 joke.
Post #42 · Posted at 2009-08-27 07:41:48pm 15.8 years ago
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It'll be funny if they go "oh we fixed the whole thing, enjoy" and when we see it, no rating scale, just difficulty.
Post #43 · Posted at 2009-08-27 08:49:05pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Aegis
It'll be funny if they go "oh we fixed the whole thing, enjoy" and when we see it, no rating scale, just difficulty.
Do we still get the groove radar? Then it's just DDRMAX JP again.
Post #44 · Posted at 2009-08-27 09:03:54pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: silenttype01
but people are too damn egotistical to come to a general consensus.
No, people can't come to a precise consensus because they have different skills. I have more stamina than some people who have more footspeed than me. So if I play ICWOWICF with certain people, they'll fail half way through the song while I end up with ~80%. But if we then play Xuxa or Infection, I end up as the one failing halfway through the song.Similarly, Tyma is better able to deal with the awkward doublestepping and jumps in Arrabbiata, so he gets an A on his first try, even though he says many "easy" 10s are far beyond him. When I play it though, I have trouble dealing with the BS, so I don't do very well.
So I think that if Dr.D did rerate everything on a 1-100 scale (preferably with an ITG 15 being a 100, to leave room for DDR charts to get harder), I'd consider him lucky if only 20% of his ratings are considered off by 3 one way or the other. 1-100 is too fine of a grain to be able to have a wide consensus amongst the different skillsets.
I think that for a definitive rating everybody could agree on, you'd actually need several ratings for each song.
Drill speed. (The speed you can hammer 2 arrows at.)
Footspeed. (Different from drill speed, it indicates dealing with more complex patterns)
Turnspeed. (Indicates how fast you have to be able to crossover.)
Doublestep speed.
Rhythmic complexity.
Gimmick difficulty. (For dealing with stops, speed changes, and stop-runs.)
Musical taste. (Some songs are so terrible, you don't want to finish playing them.)
Post #45 · Posted at 2009-08-27 09:09:54pm 15.8 years ago
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These ratings plus the existing five on the groove radar? (I think those are givens though)
Post #46 · Posted at 2009-08-27 09:17:06pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Kyzentun
I think that for a definitive rating everybody could agree on, you'd actually need several ratings for each song.
Drill speed. (The speed you can hammer 2 arrows at.)
Footspeed. (Different from drill speed, it indicates dealing with more complex patterns)
Turnspeed. (Indicates how fast you have to be able to crossover.)
Doublestep speed.
Rhythmic complexity.
Gimmick difficulty. (For dealing with stops, speed changes, and stop-runs.)
Musical taste. (Some songs are so terrible, you don't want to finish playing them.)
I think you might be on to something there. One thing a lot of chart artists and bar rapers fail to take into account is that the difficulty of a song can shoot up just because of the turning involved. Really, what's so different between exotic ethnic and Mars Wars? They're both fast and super stream. exotic ethnic is harder because those streams involve really fast cross overs. If you just double step through crossovers, that maybe be one technique you have to make it easier, but you're robbing yourself of some of the fun. People have focused so much on the rhythm of a song that they fail to acknowledge the fact that certain turns drain more than others. And double stepping is a legit technique, imo, to make a song harder. Don't believe me? I don't think Daikenkai was an accident. I think they purposely filled that song with double stepping. That's how they make that song harder. DDR doesn't involve just your legs, there's an entire part above the waist that has to deal with a song too. Any good doubles player will know this to be true.
Post #47 · Posted at 2009-08-27 09:17:06pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Nipponophiliac
These ratings plus the existing five on the groove radar? (I think those are givens though)
The groove radar is useless for any 10 and plenty of 9s because of the stupid caps. It's also displayed poorly, so it's harder to tell what any given value on it is. In my view, it shoudl be abolished, and that space taken by showing the step count, jumps, hands, and other stuff that ITG and PIU
ro show on the song select screen.Post #48 · Posted at 2009-08-27 09:21:44pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Kyzentun
Quote: Nipponophiliac
These ratings plus the existing five on the groove radar? (I think those are givens though)
The groove radar is useless for any 10 and plenty of 9s because of the stupid caps. It's also displayed poorly, so it's harder to tell what any given value on it is. In my view, it shoudl be abolished, and that space taken by showing the step count, jumps, hands, and other stuff that ITG and PIUro show on the song select screen.Post #49 · Posted at 2009-08-27 11:23:24pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Kyzentun
Quote: Tyma
Quote: Kyzentun
Quote: Mercury
Given my skill level I'd rate Arrabbiatta to the same level of difficulty as Exotic Ethnic, maybe slightly harder.
...Let me put it this way.
I've AAed Exotic Ethnic. I can't get halfway through Arrabbiatta. If they were within the same foot rating, I'd expect to be able to at least get an A on Arrabbiata, the way I have on every other 9, on both DDR and ITG.
I put Arabbiatta on the same level as Afronova. It has the exact same gimmick, and once you "get it", and can pass either song, you can pretty much full-combo both of them?
Come back when you can show you've done as well on Arrabbiatta as Afronova.
I've AAed Primeval and FNSMM, and 12 points from AA on the original. Granted, those scores are from Sunday, and it's been over a year since I've tried to play Arrabbiatta, but I was FC'ing Primeval over a year ago too.
i've AAAed afronova on EX JP and have 3 on arrabbiatta on SN2US. yes, both are CS scores, and both were done with a bar. if someone REALLY wants me to, i'll upload the pics, but i'm not saying the scores to brag, i'm trying to help prove a point.
as someone with similar scores on both songs, its bat shit stupid to say that they are anywhere near the same difficulty. i support kyzentun's argument.
Post #50 · Posted at 2009-08-28 12:01:55am 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Daiz
Quote: Kyzentun
I think that for a definitive rating everybody could agree on, you'd actually need several ratings for each song.
Drill speed. (The speed you can hammer 2 arrows at.)
Footspeed. (Different from drill speed, it indicates dealing with more complex patterns)
Turnspeed. (Indicates how fast you have to be able to crossover.)
Doublestep speed.
Rhythmic complexity.
Gimmick difficulty. (For dealing with stops, speed changes, and stop-runs.)
Musical taste. (Some songs are so terrible, you don't want to finish playing them.)
Post #51 · Posted at 2009-08-28 12:27:11am 15.8 years ago
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I think the groove radar is actually too hard to read, to use as a comparison between 2 songs. It also contains "Freeze", which is a pretty irrelevant "skill" to master. It only comes down to "Are you heavy enough to play this machine". As someone who ISNT heavy enough to play most machines, I don't think I've ever failed a song due to frezze arrows NGing, even though I usually NG every freeze arrow of every song.
A couple of things which probably can't be measured of compared :
BPM Comfort Zones
Everyone has a "perfect BPM" that they can comfortably read songs at. Using speed mods, some songs will allow you to get near this BPM, but some will be way, way out. For me, Dragon Blade is a really hard song, and one I that really frustrates me when I play it, because playing on 1.5x doesn't seen any easier than on 1x, and playing on 2x is slightly too fast for me to read.
Hands vs Drops
Pump It Up has songs in which players have to hit 3 or 4 arrows at once, and there were 3 accepted methods of doing this, none of which forced you to use your hands. Using your hands was considered a waste of energy, and it didn't look COOL. Pump It Up was all about looking cool. DDR had 2 songs that used 3/4 arrows, and neither song required you to use your hands.
In The Groove often FORCES you to use your hands. It makes you get down on your hands and knees, and press those arrows the hard way. Their (much better) version of the groove radar doesn't differentiate between "Drops" and "Hands".
A couple of things which probably can't be measured of compared :
BPM Comfort Zones
Everyone has a "perfect BPM" that they can comfortably read songs at. Using speed mods, some songs will allow you to get near this BPM, but some will be way, way out. For me, Dragon Blade is a really hard song, and one I that really frustrates me when I play it, because playing on 1.5x doesn't seen any easier than on 1x, and playing on 2x is slightly too fast for me to read.
Hands vs Drops
Pump It Up has songs in which players have to hit 3 or 4 arrows at once, and there were 3 accepted methods of doing this, none of which forced you to use your hands. Using your hands was considered a waste of energy, and it didn't look COOL. Pump It Up was all about looking cool. DDR had 2 songs that used 3/4 arrows, and neither song required you to use your hands.
In The Groove often FORCES you to use your hands. It makes you get down on your hands and knees, and press those arrows the hard way. Their (much better) version of the groove radar doesn't differentiate between "Drops" and "Hands".
Post #52 · Posted at 2009-08-28 01:01:43am 15.8 years ago
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Here's how I'd do it:
Normal scale of 1-13, in which it's the same as the original 10 scale but 10-13 taking up the old 10s. To split it up further, there's an optional + or - to indicate a harder or easier rating. So something like MAX 300 would be a 10-. Of course, this is 2min brainfart, so can be taken not very seriously.
Normal scale of 1-13, in which it's the same as the original 10 scale but 10-13 taking up the old 10s. To split it up further, there's an optional + or - to indicate a harder or easier rating. So something like MAX 300 would be a 10-. Of course, this is 2min brainfart, so can be taken not very seriously.
Post #53 · Posted at 2009-08-28 01:32:28am 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Tyma
I think the groove radar is actually too hard to read, to use as a comparison between 2 songs. It also contains "Freeze", which is a pretty irrelevant "skill" to master. It only comes down to "Are you heavy enough to play this machine". As someone who ISNT heavy enough to play most machines, I don't think I've ever failed a song due to frezze arrows NGing, even though I usually NG every freeze arrow of every song.
Freeze is extremely helpful for new players. I notice that something new players struggle with immensely is freeze frequency and use. That's why As The Rush Comes Basic is a 5 (old scale) when it had the step count of a 3; it just had freezes everywhere and I've seen new players almost fail due to N.G. on freezes.
At the Expert level, freezes are often meaningless and very few songs have difficulty revolving around the use of freeze arrows.
The Groove Radar and rating combo is extremely useful, at least to me. If a song has a massive groove radar but is rated low, it likely has very simple patterns. Likewise, a small groove radar with a high rating indicates the song is a pain in the ass (CHAOS). It also gives away potential stops; SP-TRIP MACHINE ~JUNGLE MIX~ (SMM-Special) has a tiny Groove Radar but is a 13; with no BPM shifts, it suggests the song stops an irritating amount.
Post #54 · Posted at 2009-08-28 08:02:53am 15.8 years ago
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lol Freezes do have a legit place when it come to doubles. Freezes can and do cause many problems. Also note (no pun intended), a freeze arrow "masks" the beat it's placed on, no matter the note skin. For the most part, yeah, they CAN be negligible, but I definitely think that a song with freezes is a bit harder than the same chart without them.
Post #55 · Posted at 2009-08-28 08:06:39am 15.8 years ago
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exotic ethnic and Shades of Grey come to mind
Post #56 · Posted at 2009-08-28 08:31:25am 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Daiz
lol Freezes do have a legit place when it come to doubles. Freezes can and do cause many problems. Also note (no pun intended), a freeze arrow "masks" the beat it's placed on, no matter the note skin. For the most part, yeah, they CAN be negligible, but I definitely think that a song with freezes is a bit harder than the same chart without them.
What do you mean by ""masks" the beat it's place on"? Do you mean that the head of it is not colored to indicate whether it's on a 4th or 8th or 16th? That's only the case with crappy Konami or Konami imitating noteskins. Good noteskins color the head of the freeze appropriately.Also, Artic Wolves is wrong about freezes being meaningless at the expert level. Freezes, even when colored properly, increase the difficulty of reading complex sections, even for experienced players. Go keyboard Infernoplex, and then tell me your FA or MA or PA doesn't drop when that simple 16th stream turns into freezes. There are also plenty of charts on singles and doubles that use freezes to make a section harder. SMMM
and 
, Maxx Unlimited , FELM and , in addition to the examples silenttype01 listed for doubles.Post #57 · Posted at 2009-08-28 12:48:04pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Kyzentun
Also, Artic Wolves is wrong about freezes being meaningless at the expert level.
Quote: Arctic Wolves
At the Expert level, freezes are often meaningless and very few songs have difficulty revolving around the use of freeze arrows.
Key word was missed. And I maintain that the majority of freeze arrows contribute very little to difficulty for an expert player. Perhaps it's just my play style, but for the majority of songs I play them the same, freezes on or off. A freeze might force a step or two, but I don't really consider it a core part of a song's difficulty unless freezes force a player to step in ways they otherwise would not. I admit that I haven't observed a lot of expert players, so I shouldn't universally comment on the effect of freezes to expert players, but for me, freezes have been of little concern in most songs. Just my experience.
Post #58 · Posted at 2009-08-28 01:04:57pm 15.8 years ago
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freezes dont make a difference unless youre playing exotic ethnic double heavy
Post #59 · Posted at 2009-08-28 02:28:49pm 15.8 years ago
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So, let me do some paraphrasing, for comparison.
When you have a song where freeze arrows are actually used, they make a difference in the difficulty, depending on what's done with them.
Quote: Arctic Wolves
At the Expert level, freezes are often meaningless and very few songs have difficulty revolving around the use of freeze arrows.
Quote: Arctic Wolves
At the Expert level, stops are often meaningless and very few songs have difficulty revolving around the use of stops.
When you have a song where freeze arrows are actually used, they make a difference in the difficulty, depending on what's done with them.
Post #60 · Posted at 2009-08-28 02:36:11pm 15.8 years ago
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Quote: Bolt-Edge
freezes dont make a difference unless youre playing exotic ethnic double heavy
as shown below:
yeah bitches