Post #41 · Posted at 2009-02-13 05:06:58pm 16.2 years ago
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Harmonix didn't steal an idea as much as entirely and utterly improve it.
I say, "You snooze, you lose." to Konami for not exploring the American market for GF/DM. They didn't give Beatmania a fair shot either. They have no one to blame for this but themselves.
I say, "You snooze, you lose." to Konami for not exploring the American market for GF/DM. They didn't give Beatmania a fair shot either. They have no one to blame for this but themselves.
Post #42 · Posted at 2009-02-13 05:11:32pm 16.2 years ago
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you have to steal someone elses idea to improve it. they took GF/DM and "improved" it(thats all opinion, clearly japan doesnt think harmonix's ideas are improvements or GH, originally made by them, would have sold better there), this means they stole an idea.
also, yeah, "you snooze, you lose". that doesnt mean harmonix should be able to sue konami for using their own idea.
also, yeah, "you snooze, you lose". that doesnt mean harmonix should be able to sue konami for using their own idea.
Post #43 · Posted at 2009-02-13 05:37:22pm 16.2 years ago
| Pie-kun | |
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I really think the whole "Konami missed the train on GF/DM in America" is pretty silly.
Would GF/DM had seen success if released in America? Maybe, maybe not. Konami SHOULD have explored the market, yes. But come on, would GF/DM had accumulated even 10% of the success of Guitar Hero or Rock Band? Probably not. With most of the songlist being Konami artists with obscure Japanese names that most of the American public can even pronounce, would it have been as big of a hit as DDR or GH/RB? I'm guessing not. Let's face it, a huge reason for GH/RB's success is because almost all the content is just popular licensed stuff, and that's generally not a path Konami takes (Unless the songlist is entirely crappy covers lol).
I also prefer GF/DM to either Guitar Hero or Rock Band, simply because I'm more interested in hearing/playing the new Asaki, TAG, TËЯRA etc. song than I am about playing 20-year old rock songs or songs from new crappy groups, and I also don't like the graphical interface for either game, but other than that the other games are ok.
Would GF/DM had seen success if released in America? Maybe, maybe not. Konami SHOULD have explored the market, yes. But come on, would GF/DM had accumulated even 10% of the success of Guitar Hero or Rock Band? Probably not. With most of the songlist being Konami artists with obscure Japanese names that most of the American public can even pronounce, would it have been as big of a hit as DDR or GH/RB? I'm guessing not. Let's face it, a huge reason for GH/RB's success is because almost all the content is just popular licensed stuff, and that's generally not a path Konami takes (Unless the songlist is entirely crappy covers lol).
I also prefer GF/DM to either Guitar Hero or Rock Band, simply because I'm more interested in hearing/playing the new Asaki, TAG, TËЯRA etc. song than I am about playing 20-year old rock songs or songs from new crappy groups, and I also don't like the graphical interface for either game, but other than that the other games are ok.
Post #44 · Posted at 2009-02-13 07:03:19pm 16.2 years ago
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Quote: MarsPhoenix
They didn't give Beatmania a fair shot either. They have no one to blame for this but themselves.
Both Beatmania (well, Hiphopmania - and it had three releases of this) and Guitar Freaks got a US release. Both flopped big time.
Post #45 · Posted at 2009-02-13 08:53:35pm 16.2 years ago
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...this just made my day (in the sense that now Harmonix is suing Konami which i would think it would be the other way around)...
...i mostly agree with what n00b says about this issue, and i also like the idea on how Activison pays its respect's to Konami, and in turn, they are helping them with the GH:AC...
...but Harmonix wants to be all up on dat ass and wants to pop some caps up in this bitch...(to put it simply, Harmonix just wants to win this lawsuit because Konami started it).
I say: Konami, pop pop them hoes.
...i mostly agree with what n00b says about this issue, and i also like the idea on how Activison pays its respect's to Konami, and in turn, they are helping them with the GH:AC...
...but Harmonix wants to be all up on dat ass and wants to pop some caps up in this bitch...(to put it simply, Harmonix just wants to win this lawsuit because Konami started it).
I say: Konami, pop pop them hoes.
Post #46 · Posted at 2009-02-13 09:47:05pm 16.2 years ago
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I think there should be some kind of settlement about music games and music instrument simulation otherwise everything will continue like this. everyone suing everyone. I'm sick and tired of this. I understand lawsuits against games like EZ2DJ. but hell dj max evolved into something different and is "korean" (combo based/fever based).
KONAMI has half of the patents, Activision has the other half. thus others should be able to pay those companies and come up with their own game? without suing each other meh. because people want more, companies see it working more or less...and it's tempting for them as well.
KONAMI fell asleep....or ignored US/Europe as a potential market altogether. When they got the chance they just disappeared. Someone else took over...They would have to change their opinions about European/US players first....then produce a game that would be good for the region.
Harmonix even said. We wanted something like Guitar Freaks in the US so we made a guitar simulation game....KONAMI could have done this long time ago.
(all this applies to US. as in Europe you can produce a music game no problem...)
KONAMI has half of the patents, Activision has the other half. thus others should be able to pay those companies and come up with their own game? without suing each other meh. because people want more, companies see it working more or less...and it's tempting for them as well.
KONAMI fell asleep....or ignored US/Europe as a potential market altogether. When they got the chance they just disappeared. Someone else took over...They would have to change their opinions about European/US players first....then produce a game that would be good for the region.
Harmonix even said. We wanted something like Guitar Freaks in the US so we made a guitar simulation game....KONAMI could have done this long time ago.
(all this applies to US. as in Europe you can produce a music game no problem...)
Post #47 · Posted at 2009-02-14 04:25:07am 16.2 years ago
| killer_roach | |
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Preparing to get -5'd from just about everybody for saying this, but I've been around the Bemani community long enough to speak my mind.
While not exactly hoping Viacom wins their suit, I hope it at least causes Konami to drop theirs.
Konami has, over the past decade, used a series of vague patents to bludgeon competition and continue to reap economic profits on a product that has barely innovated in the past decade. The only exception to this was to let Activision go on Guitar Hero, but only after Activision licensed Konami's patents for an unspecified sum of money. Far from being reasonable, this sounds like extortion with a smiley face.
I'm hoping this new wave of competition helps Konami realize that they are competing in a free market, whether they like it or not. They have incredible amounts of musical talent (having a roster of in-house and contracted musicians that is near-unparalleled), and their art direction shows occasional flashes of sheer brilliance. I wish I could say the same, however, for the games themselves, which have stagnated since, at the most optimistic, their initial moves to the PS2 hardware.
Hopefully the insanity of the lawsuits passes, and the two companies can get back to doing what they do best (no, Konami, that's not suing people!).
While not exactly hoping Viacom wins their suit, I hope it at least causes Konami to drop theirs.
Konami has, over the past decade, used a series of vague patents to bludgeon competition and continue to reap economic profits on a product that has barely innovated in the past decade. The only exception to this was to let Activision go on Guitar Hero, but only after Activision licensed Konami's patents for an unspecified sum of money. Far from being reasonable, this sounds like extortion with a smiley face.
I'm hoping this new wave of competition helps Konami realize that they are competing in a free market, whether they like it or not. They have incredible amounts of musical talent (having a roster of in-house and contracted musicians that is near-unparalleled), and their art direction shows occasional flashes of sheer brilliance. I wish I could say the same, however, for the games themselves, which have stagnated since, at the most optimistic, their initial moves to the PS2 hardware.
Hopefully the insanity of the lawsuits passes, and the two companies can get back to doing what they do best (no, Konami, that's not suing people!).
Post #48 · Posted at 2009-02-14 04:52:48am 16.2 years ago
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I think some of you guys need to realize that Konami isn't the only one who's greedy here. Viacom is probably even worse than Konami when it comes to this stuff. Viacom has a stranglehold on the media industry, from television (Pretty much any popular television station in the US) to video games (Harmonix). Youtube user know how nasty Viacom can be. I remember just recently that they were going to pull all of their TV stations on Time Warner until they increased the amount paid to Viacom. Eventually, Time Warner was forced to give them more money. Face it, Konami isn't as big of a company as the international conglomerate known as Viacom, and they've been doing this shit for a while. This shit is nothing new
It's the battle of douchebag corporate executives, and right now, I honestly think Konami is going to win this one.
It's the battle of douchebag corporate executives, and right now, I honestly think Konami is going to win this one.
Quote: killer_roach
Preparing to get -5'd from just about everybody for saying this, but I've been around the Bemani community long enough to speak my mind..
I don't disagree with you, but i did anyway just because you said so.Post #49 · Posted at 2009-02-14 06:18:19am 16.2 years ago
| musicfan32787 | |
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Good call Bolt, good call.
Yes, I've seen Viacom's copyright thing after some Nickelodeon shows and on Nickelodeon's show's products.
Yes, I've seen Viacom's copyright thing after some Nickelodeon shows and on Nickelodeon's show's products.
You just got pwned by the iPod.Post #50 · Posted at 2009-02-14 08:32:09am 16.2 years ago
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Hopefully konami wins because I really like IIDX. DON'T GIVE A DAMN 'BOUT HARMONIX THOUGH
I don't really know about lawsuits that much but if konami stopped making music games and harmonix was the main supplier of them, i'd be deeply saddened
I don't really know about lawsuits that much but if konami stopped making music games and harmonix was the main supplier of them, i'd be deeply saddened
Post #51 · Posted at 2009-02-14 09:44:21am 16.2 years ago
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Quote: n00b_saib0t
could you imagine konami staying in their "territory"(japan) while RoXoR had theirs(america), but RoXoR had the backing of konami?
Naoki with KaW?
Post #52 · Posted at 2009-02-14 10:42:47am 16.2 years ago
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Quote: hooky
Quote: n00b_saib0t
could you imagine konami staying in their "territory"(japan) while RoXoR had theirs(america), but RoXoR had the backing of konami?
Naoki with KaW?They should make a song, I wanna see the turnout. (what's Kyle Ward's middle name, andrew? because that'd explain the "a" in KaW)
Post #53 · Posted at 2009-02-14 11:44:56am 16.2 years ago
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Quote: killer_roach
Preparing to get -5'd from just about everybody for saying this, but I've been around the Bemani community long enough to speak my mind.
While not exactly hoping Viacom wins their suit, I hope it at least causes Konami to drop theirs.
Konami has, over the past decade, used a series of vague patents to bludgeon competition and continue to reap economic profits on a product that has barely innovated in the past decade. The only exception to this was to let Activision go on Guitar Hero, but only after Activision licensed Konami's patents for an unspecified sum of money. Far from being reasonable, this sounds like extortion with a smiley face.
I'm hoping this new wave of competition helps Konami realize that they are competing in a free market, whether they like it or not. They have incredible amounts of musical talent (having a roster of in-house and contracted musicians that is near-unparalleled), and their art direction shows occasional flashes of sheer brilliance. I wish I could say the same, however, for the games themselves, which have stagnated since, at the most optimistic, their initial moves to the PS2 hardware.
Hopefully the insanity of the lawsuits passes, and the two companies can get back to doing what they do best (no, Konami, that's not suing people!).
While not exactly hoping Viacom wins their suit, I hope it at least causes Konami to drop theirs.
Konami has, over the past decade, used a series of vague patents to bludgeon competition and continue to reap economic profits on a product that has barely innovated in the past decade. The only exception to this was to let Activision go on Guitar Hero, but only after Activision licensed Konami's patents for an unspecified sum of money. Far from being reasonable, this sounds like extortion with a smiley face.
I'm hoping this new wave of competition helps Konami realize that they are competing in a free market, whether they like it or not. They have incredible amounts of musical talent (having a roster of in-house and contracted musicians that is near-unparalleled), and their art direction shows occasional flashes of sheer brilliance. I wish I could say the same, however, for the games themselves, which have stagnated since, at the most optimistic, their initial moves to the PS2 hardware.
Hopefully the insanity of the lawsuits passes, and the two companies can get back to doing what they do best (no, Konami, that's not suing people!).
actually, konami's patents are pretty damn specific, and contrary to popular opinion, they dont copyright a genre. they copyright the way they do it. a dance game with 4 arrows on the cardinal directions placed in time to music(as well as how the inside of the pad works) is pretty specific, and it leaves PLENTY of room for people to make other dancing games, such as PIU(yes i know konami tried to sue, but there is a reason they lost that one but won the ITG suit). same goes for the RB lawsuit, its about how the controller works, not the game itself. i cant really comment on the DJ max lawsuit because i dont know the specifics of it, and i dont even know what the DJ max controller looks like because i've only ever played the PSP versions.
them copyrighting their controller design is no worse than sony copyrighting the dual shock design, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just uneducated in the way of the video game industry.
Post #54 · Posted at 2009-02-14 01:22:58pm 16.2 years ago
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Quote: Computers_Rule
Good call Bolt, good call.
Yes, I've seen Viacom's copyright thing after some Nickelodeon shows and on Nickelodeon's show's products.
I remember the "Crying Dora" ads for this. Like Bolt-Edge said, Viacom is a greedy corporation. So greedy they had to split off from CBS a few years back.Yes, I've seen Viacom's copyright thing after some Nickelodeon shows and on Nickelodeon's show's products.
Post #55 · Posted at 2009-02-15 03:34:38am 16.2 years ago
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Quote: n00b_saib0t
like i've said before, could you imagine if the odyssey people sued everyone that made a system that connects to a TV and displays images based on controller input for a game inserted into said system?
I don't even have to imagine it, it really happened.
Post #56 · Posted at 2009-02-15 03:43:17am 16.2 years ago
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like mario and megaman.
i think konami didn't release dm to usa 'coz sum1 owns the patent to drum simulation (and he's on activision and gh).
and here i tought konami and harmonix won''t meet in court, and it's even the other way around.
i think konami didn't release dm to usa 'coz sum1 owns the patent to drum simulation (and he's on activision and gh).
and here i tought konami and harmonix won''t meet in court, and it's even the other way around.
Post #57 · Posted at 2009-02-15 04:11:50am 16.2 years ago
| MarsPhoenix | |
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Quote: piepiepie75
I really think the whole "Konami missed the train on GF/DM in America" is pretty silly.
Would GF/DM had seen success if released in America? Maybe, maybe not. Konami SHOULD have explored the market, yes. But come on, would GF/DM had accumulated even 10% of the success of Guitar Hero or Rock Band? Probably not.
Would GF/DM had seen success if released in America? Maybe, maybe not. Konami SHOULD have explored the market, yes. But come on, would GF/DM had accumulated even 10% of the success of Guitar Hero or Rock Band? Probably not.
Konami could have released Rock Revolution before GH1 and it wouldn't have been a joke. Maybe Bemani fans wouldn't have exactly liked it too much, but I doubt you can disagree it wouldn't have had a very high success probability.
Post #58 · Posted at 2009-02-15 04:35:01am 16.2 years ago
| Pie-kun | |
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But we wouldn't be talking about Rock Revolution. RR was just a desperate attempt to copy Guitar Hero and Rock Band rather than an attempt to explore a market. The game they would have released would likely have been devoid of many "chart topping hits" and a huge chunk would have been Konami Originals by artists most people haven't heard of.
Post #59 · Posted at 2009-02-15 05:57:20am 16.2 years ago
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Quote: OrangeRight
Quote: n00b_saib0t
like i've said before, could you imagine if the odyssey people sued everyone that made a system that connects to a TV and displays images based on controller input for a game inserted into said system?
I don't even have to imagine it, it really happened.
nifty, but they sued for arcade games that used their ideas. if you read what i said, i'm talking about them turning around and suing someone for making a HOME SYSTEM. that article clearly states arcades, and mentions how they were starting to get big.
Post #60 · Posted at 2009-02-15 03:50:40pm 16.2 years ago
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Quote: n00b_saib0t
actually, konami's patents are pretty damn specific, and contrary to popular opinion, they dont copyright a genre. they copyright the way they do it. a dance game with 4 arrows on the cardinal directions placed in time to music(as well as how the inside of the pad works) is pretty specific, and it leaves PLENTY of room for people to make other dancing games, such as PIU(yes i know konami tried to sue, but there is a reason they lost that one but won the ITG suit). same goes for the RB lawsuit, its about how the controller works, not the game itself. i cant really comment on the DJ max lawsuit because i dont know the specifics of it, and i dont even know what the DJ max controller looks like because i've only ever played the PSP versions.
them copyrighting their controller design is no worse than sony copyrighting the dual shock design, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just uneducated in the way of the video game industry.
them copyrighting their controller design is no worse than sony copyrighting the dual shock design, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just uneducated in the way of the video game industry.
Having studied American patent law, the patents in question probably would not pass either an obviousness test or a specificity test... Konami's guitar controller patent has little to do with actual operation and more to do with "interfacing" with software, which makes it a glorified version of a normal input device. That being said, there are some things in the patent with regards to the tilt sensor of the guitar controller that may or may not apply, but the question then would be if the GF controller and the GH/RB guitar controllers both do so in the same way (the mechanism by which the tilt sensor works is not specified in the patent).
If that's specific for a patent, then there's something wrong with the patent system in general. Not that there aren't things related to Konami's technology that aren't possibly (and probably should be) patentable, I just haven't seen them in any specific detail (from a legal perspective).