What are people's stances on 'turn' mods?

Sorry if this has been brought up before but I couldn't find any thread on it, at least not recently.

But anyways yeah, what's people's stance on this? Should they be used, and if so does that score technically 'count'? I don't want to annoy anybody and don't want to take away any achievements that ANY individual has accomplished, but to me.. I don't know, I don't think I approve of it.. It's the same when I play IIDX and see people using random, in either game the chart isn't being played the way it's intended to be played I'm not sure if that kind of defeats the purpose and de-validates the scores?

It's only recently have I started to see turn mods coming into play, and I guess that's because the charts have gotten a hell of lot more crossover/double-steppy as of late that yeah, it does make them extremely difficult to play, but therein lies the reason the song/chart is rated so highly, for those specific techniques required to pass it.

I don't know, I feel like I'm coming off as a bit of a douchebag here and I really don't want to, but I'm curious as to what others think. Again, if you've ever achieved something great using a turn mod I'm not trying to take it away from you (and hell, a pass on something like PARANOiA Revolution Challenge is spectacular with or without turn mods!).

Well I don't see anything wrong with them.. Left/right/mirror are the same as playing the chart normally but just facing a different direction, you're still making the same kinds of movements at the same speed/rhythm... (to an extent).
As for shuffle, I don't know really. The steps are still the same in density, and the speed/movements required, you just have to hit a different panel. It can help by taking out crossovers or screw you over by adding more or spins. I suppose I don't have any problems with turn mods, since they don't change the chart too much from what I see.

I personally don't play with turn mods (especially not left and right). The only time Mirror comes in handy is when playing PSM .

If you're trying to AAA PFC or simply pass a really hard song, then Mirror is okay, but Left, Right, and Shuffle just complicates things. I'd rather play a harder chart that makes sense than an easier one with Crossovers & Spins galore. The latter's not fun to do on any speed IMO.

If turn mods invalidated scores Konami would not allow their use in every Internet ranking and event like the Konami Arcade Championships and TopRanker tournaments. Same applies to IIDX and all applicable Bemani titles.

They can hinder or hurt you depending on case but there are so many exceptions it really isn't worth losing sleep over. A PFC on HDVO is amazing regardless of mods.

Besides, I have known a few players that always play with their body turned inwards to the center of the stage. Are they playing on a turn mod regardless of what mods are used in the game?

It is a moot point. If the game valued modded (except for cut which actually removes steps) charts less, you would get a lower or be punished in some way, but you aren't, so it is all fair game. Valuing it less is just a subjective opinion that has no relation to the actual scoring in the game

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Too me, it seems like cheating if it makes the chart easier. I MAY use mirror if I play hard songs. JUST recently I aced Possession on and someone suggested I play it on mirror next time since it makes it easier. What do you think? Would it matter or not?

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It does not matter. Play as you wish. If someone else tries to force you to play a specific way, get them to pay for your game.

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Yeah I personally care very little about scoring and am not competitive in the least, over in the UK there's not much point in going into DDR with the competitive element in mind haha, but I was just curious.

And I was only really talking about when a turn mod makes a song easier; HDVO for example, I forget which turn it is (could even be shuffle) but one totally negates all of the ending crossovers and yes, the part up until the speedup are littered with awkward steps, but I'd much rather step awkward 12th gallops at 180bpm than 8th note crossovers at 360bpm haha, and at THAT point do I think turn mods are a bit cheat-ish? But yeah regardless it's still an amazing feat don't get me wrong and cheat is a very harsh word..

I dunno, it's all a bit taboo! Technically yes it's not something that the game punishes so it's allowed, but as a community say 2 players got the exact same score on a song but one player did use a turn mod; would you hold the other player who played it normally in higher regard?

For you last paragraph,

In the context of the game? No. The game treats them the same. If mods were allowed then the player not playing to win is being a fool trapped in a self created mental prison for not playing to and advantage he can use.

Of course if the rules are specifically "no turn mods" then that is another story

(sorry, typing on my iPhone is a b*tch)

For my explanation, I mean in the context of a tournament

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It's an interesting topic and one I haven't seen brought up on here before. So I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

My views on this have changed over the years. I'll say what they used to be and what they are now. Most importantly, why they changed.

In the past I didn't really have a strong opinion either way. They only time this came up was in tournaments. Some people complained when others wanted to use them. Some tournaments banned them altogether while others made it an agreeable option.

Arguments I often heard against them were usually, "You should play the chart how it was meant to be played," or "It's cheating," or even "players in Japan don't use them"

My current stance is in favor of using them at the players discretion.

This all changed my first trip to Japan back in 09' where I found out lots of Japanese players have no issues with using turn mods everyday. I was a bit surprised how much more frequent they used them and didn't mind either way.
After thinking it over more I also thought there shouldn't be any problems with them. Here are my reasons.

1. If using turn mods really makes a certain song easier, everyone has the option to use that mod. Like in a tournament setting if your opponent wants to a turn mod and you complain it makes the chart easier, then why not use that option as well since it's easier. If it is available to everyone, then there shouldn't be a problem.
2. konami has NO PROBLEM with people using turn mods in any setting. Seriously, every tournament I've been to or seen had no problem with contestants using turn mods on songs. Not to mention any song you play with mods like that wont disqualify your score. Going even further you can even play an IR course with what ever turn mod you want and still be globally ranked.
3. If certain songs are generally accepted as easier with a turn mod than thats fine. Counting a legit score shouldn't matter which turn mod was used. However, we can still be more impressed depending on the mod. Maybe you don't think borsoni's HDVO score is legit/impressive since he did it on shuffle. I say it's legit but if he or someone else were to do it again with turn mods it'd also be legit but maybe more impressive.

I always made a joke when this argument comes up. Most people only look at the advantages when the talk of turn mods come up. What's often overlooked is the fact turns like right,left, and shuffle make nearly all songs harder, especially the harder you go. Would any one HONESTLY say to someone who PFCed Maxx Unlimited on shuffle, whatever, you used shuffle, it doesn't count/isn't impressive. Seriously? This goes back to my point. Count them the same, but feel more amazed and awed depends on how they did it. A maxx unlimited PFC on any turn with count the same. It's your choice to say which one of those is most impressive to you.

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I just wanted to know. Really the only reason I don't use them is because I don't wanna hear people complaining about it. And people have before. It gets annoying.

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I'm liking everybody's replies, it's making for an interesting read and insight into this. Personally I've only used turn mods to breath life into stepcharts I've grown a bit tired of, but y'know I may just start experimenting with them knowing the community doesn't exactly frown upon them!

Thanks for nobody biting my head off or anything too, always get a bit nervous posting about stuff that could potentially upset people!

You made some really good points DrD. Well I guess I don't have to worry about it anymore then since most people could careless about it. And for those who do, well I'll just ignore them. They'll probably just be trolling anyway. I guess I'll play POSSESSION on with mirror next time. Now using the "CUT" setting is different. lol

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It is different. Thats why it wont allow you to get a high score. However, it shouldn't matter if in a tournament your opponent wants to use a Cut option since you will almost certainly win.

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Yeah, I totally agree with Dr.D. If it's easier then why the hell not use it? If you think it's not legit, I'll dismiss it because the validness of my score is determined by the machine, not some random individual on the internet.

Also I use SHUFFLE a lot, and on SN2 I tend to use BOOST. I shuffled Under the Aky, 5.1.1., and SUNKiSS DROP, to name a few.

Oh I didn't see the new replies. Using CUT still allows highscore, though it'll be a pathetically low one. I got my 580k-ish score on Tohoku that way.

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Turn mods are a part of the game. No one says you have to use them, but I do like how it does make Arrabbiatta a bit easier when you use the turn right mod!

My stance on turn mods is exactly the same as my stance with the bar: The score always counts. It's just more impressive with/without the bar/turn mod. (Similar to what Dr.D said.)

yeah, it does seem the consensus is that /asserting/ one way or another is as stupid as the bar/no bar debate turned out to be.

But discussing why, why not? fair enough.

Personally I'd find someone doing those HDVO crossovers fucking insane without turns, but with turns? slightly less so. turns with no bar? more so. No turns no bar? are you a fucking wizard?

heh

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It's all cheating. We should all play 1x flat, no-bar, no shoes, toes only. How else can we be well-respected professional dancers if we hinder ourselves like this?

(my stance: who cares. The majority of people who complain about this stuff aren't that good at DDR anyway)

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