Counting Step Charts Differently

I have a question and I'd like to see what some of you think. I wish I could make a poll but since I can't I hope to see a lot of discussion.

My main question is how and at what point would you regard a step chart different from a previous version? Let's explore some examples first to get an idea.
btw, I'm mostly talk about Expert and Challenge charts.

Bag from extreme vs. DDR X/X2 version (X2 even counts them as different charts now)
Vanity Angel from extreme vs. Euromix 2 version(I've heard EM2 is lacking a freeze.) Same with Long train I heard as well.
Mikeneko Rock from extreme vs. DDR X/X2 version (The 12ths are clearly different) Same goes for Tsugaru from max 2 and X/X2
Healing D Vision from SN1 vs. DDR X/X2 version

The list goes on. Again my question is when would you decide that its a new chart as in you would count it as a new AAA or new AA. In the case of Bag, mikenko rock, tsugaru, and HDV, all of them are changes in timing. This would be a clear cut answer one way or the other, however, Konami has only recognized Bag as a seperate chart by making a challenge and expert for it. This leaves the nagging question about the other songs.

Next, songs like Vanity angel have very slight step differences and or freeze differences. Does lacking a freeze or 2 really define the song as another chart?

I know there is a lot of gray area when talking about things like this but I'd really like to see some opinions. I'll reserve posting my thoughts until I see some here cause I don't want to influence other peoples thoughts.

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I don't consider something with a minor change such as a lack of freeze arrow or different arrow position a different chart, as far as counting the notes and stuff goes, I'd base it off of whatever mix it originated in. When it comes to "fixed" charts such as Bag in X, I consider that an entirely different chart.
tl;dr, a few notes = same chart, "fixed" charts = new in my book.

Agreed.

Vanity Angel on EM2 is exactly the same chart with freezes off, and so I wouldn't class this as substantially a different chart. Similarly, a few notes added at the start or end of a chart (as e.g. EuroMIX and 3rdMIX nonstop courses used to do) doesn't substantially alter a chart either.

Re-quantised charts with 24ths or 12ths I would definitely count as a substantially different chart, as would I any chart with actual step changes (converting less than about 5 or 6 steps to/from freezes doesn't count).

Charts where there was a few (at most 3 or 4) duff notes in terms of timing that was fixed in a later release I would not count as a new chart (did they ever fix that one slightly-off note in Vanity Angel single Expert in later mixes?)

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If there is a single added or removed step, I'd consider it a new chart.

If it's a modification of freeze arrows such as removing hands (or removing Lifts), I'd also consider it a new (and better) chart, but in the case of DDR, that shouldn't be an issue...

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Whay said Chi too.

Because Konami add a few notes at beginning or end of song doesn't change the song at all and should not be counted as a new chart.

HDV, Bag for example can be counted as new chart because the timing of a half of the song is different. Not if it's a note or two.

I second neo, although if a chart's 'few notes' are significantly placed enough to change the feel of a song then sure, it can be called 'new'. As for timing fixes.... ehh. not sure. I wouldn't call them new so much as I'd call them probably more fun to play haha

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I say almost any change is a 'new' chart, since it impacts the scores people will get. Purely cosmetic changes like the VANITY ANGEL freezes are debatable since almost no one will have added troubles if they're playing at that level, but absolutely things like Arrabiatta D- on SN2 US is different than the one on SN2 AC, since that one extra jump at the end is an easy combo blower. And things like Pluto Relinquish X versus Pluto Relinquish SN2 (they fixed the 'off' part in the final speed up so it follows the bass exactly), the X version is much easier to not score a random great on.

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In my opinion, songs with timing fixes (32nds -> 12ths) aren't necessarily "new" charts as it is a largely fixed chart, some what like fixing the timing of the entire song (such as Red Zone from SN1 to SN2). Bag has a separate chart in X2 I thought mostly because the fans claimed the chart was much easier with the fixed timing (and even then it's easier because it's a 7 year old chart that was given its rating without a speed mod in mind, a newer players playing without mods will see it as a 10/14-15 still).

Agreeing with Daiz, a lot of the "fixed" charts are because the originals were coded to the limitations of the technology of the time. CAPTAIN JACK, Healing Vision, bag, etc... They are different but that was not the intention.

Charts where arrows or other score-impacting features change are a different chart IMO. Vanity Angel's only differences are Freeze Arrows but turning off freeze arrows changes the score you get for clearing that song, even if perfectly. To say nothing of adding/deleting/moving arrows around.

Since most people are leaning towards counting them separately, I have one further question.

What about simple sync changes? Obvious examples are songs like Hyper Euro Beat and D2R Pre SN.

In these cases the songs are the same steps and nothing added. Additionally, no quantization has taken place. Would these also be counted separately? Lots of songs can fall into this category.

If we adopt a method like the above said then we might as well count every song a new mix differently due to slight sync updates from mix to mix. Might as well count anything AAAed or AAed on an old mix differently and not because of the 1x but because of the different game engine and frame rate.

It's hard to make exceptions without a consensus cause everyone can have different views on what constitutes as change.

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Honestly, I think a score on one mix shouldn't always be counted the same on another mix. I'm a completist by heart and I feel like making a 93% accuracy on Extreme isn't the same as making 95% on Supernova. Different timing windows, scoring methods, etc, etc factor into a score. Mixes that are extremely similar need not count (Max-Extreme seem pretty much the same as far as timing goes for me).

I too am a completist which is why I'm aksing these questions. I want to know if I rePFC Tsugaru, Mikeneko rock, Burning Heat, etc. if it should be counted as a new AAA. I recently got Bag's DDR X version chart and decided to count it because konami officially made a separate chart for it.

I want to Re AAA a lot of the above songs mentioned but I'm not sure if I do it would count as a new PFC. I haven't even PFCed Healing D Vision yet but I'd like to know if I do it on X2 will I have to go back and do it on SN1 or SN2 again?

Currently I know of no score tracker that puts separate listings for songs with fixed timing/sync.

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I know some people who think that playing the same song without changes on different mixes (different perfect window, scoring scheme, timing, etc...) counts as a new AAA.

Because the granularity is so fine, I'd say to each their own. If you think it counts, it counts. If not, then it doesn't.

Imo, if the stepchart is the exact same, it's not a new AAA. Even if on one mix it's off sync and on other it's on sync.
Just play on the best cab and that's it. If you managed to get AAA on the song even on the mix where it's off sync, it's just "a bit harder".
It's like counting AAA something nobar, it's different.

I think it make sence to count bag as 2 different bag since Konami already made 2 charts officialy in the same mix.
For the other... i don't know. It feels redundant for the other songs. I would feel like adding extra (free) AAA to my AAA count if i count some songs twice.

Imo, sync issues should not be counter twice.
Playing a song on different mix ad AAA it doesn't matter, it's still only one single AAA.
But for minor stepchart changes/fixs... i don't know.

At first, i through nobody will count the fixed charts as new ones. But for people who gets those chart (exemple Bag/Burning Heat) on pre-X cab (without fixed charts so) they will be more congratulate by other players because they didn't did it on the fixed version. That's all.

But now i'm confused a bit. I think that's a good thing to talk :3

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those actually havent changed since 5th mix. the sync has changed from game to game, marvelous has been added to regular play, but the size of perfect, great, good, boo, and miss was the same since 5th, only changing to add marvelous in extreme and omit boo in X2.

anyway, it sucks but it almost has to be song by song. isnt calico cat rock only corrected on like 5 notes? on the other hand, all of bag, HDV, burning heat, etc are corrected. i dont think fixing a couple notes should count as a new song like fixing every note should.

to illustrate my point, how many people *REALLY* consider there to be 3 versions of kind lady? 6th CS, ultramix, and extreme AC are all slightly different. 6th CS has different patterns and some of the notes at the end are holds, extreme AC changes some of the patterns while keeping the same note count and removing the holds. and IIRC ultramix was the 6th mix chart without holds. would you REALLY count that as 3 separate AAAs? i wouldnt. if you got all 3, but only had those 3, you have one AAA. hows it feel?

on the flip side of that, all the songs where the whole thing was changed had the entire way the chart plays get changed. you dont play bag and burning heat the same on X2 as you did on extreme. you just cant, not if you want a good score. also HDV became something completely different from the SN chart just by fixing it. its nothing at all like it was, despite the same note placement (because it didnt use wrong 12ths, it used 16ths and 8ths).

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Alright, now I'll say my take in general on this.

I would consider any song that has changed in timing or sync as the same chart/song. To me it wouldn't make sense to count those differently cause it hard to draw a consensus. Again what changes make it different; sync? timing? quantization?

Panstyle seems to share my view. Count them the same but the community knows the difference. For instance if I PFCed Burning Heat on DDR X2 and someone else PFCed it on DDR Extreme than we can both count it the same, however, a person inquiring about our identical PFC's would know that the DDR Extreme version is harder than the X2 version and can "respect" it more. Either way they should be counted as the same. This goes for almost any song as well. If some one PFCed Drop Out on 4th mix and someone else got it on Extreme then they both got it, just we know instinctively that one is much harder to do.

Also I fear that if we count differences like that then all of a sudden we're going to find that we have a plethora of new charts due to timing differences and sync.

tl;dr
In short, some songs are easier depending on the mix while others are harder, though it makes more sense to appreciate scores done on the harder "version" than try to count them all different cause once you make an exception it's going to get messy.

My one exception (though I don't think it's an exception) is Bag Expert and Challenge. In this case and only this case has Konami recognized them as different. If tomorrow they come out with oni charts to burning heat, tsugaru, mikeneko rock, etc. then I'll count them differently.

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