Post #21 · Posted at 2020-07-13 05:33:58am 3.7 years ago
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We shouldn't have to sit here and tally up who is voting for who because it really doesn't matter. So now that myself and a handful of other people have been singled out for rigging votes, we have handy dandy lists of who we vote for too much. So what am I supposed to do now, vote based on who I haven't voted for yet? Why isn't there a regulation like that for everybody else? It's bullshit and if anything that is more vote rigging than anything my friends and I could do. What a joke.
Literally this is all that's happening:
I know there's been some question about my motives for entering the contest (I guess, remember week 1 with Hot Summer?) and it's clear that I'm in the minority when it comes to my tastes and preferences for files. Literally, the only reason I enter these contests is to get inspiration to make files. I don't really care about the contest aspect of it at all. So it's kinda hilarious to me to be accused of rigging votes. What exactly is at stake here? There's no prize (and I'm not saying there should be). I have a life outside of this simfile stuff, StepMania is not as high on my priorities as it used to be. I'm a grown-ass man.
It's not that complicated. I'm convinced someone/some other people have a vendetta or something against me or my friends. Probably for some dumb rude shit we did back in the day because yeah I can admit that I was such a bitch back then but I've actively tried to change and become a better person but somehow I'm still the problem? Whatever.
All I wanted to do was sign up and make cute files with my friends, so we'd have something fun to do for summer. But I guess that isn't allowed.
Literally this is all that's happening:
Quote: shortysnmn2010
...people that step similar styles to similar songs will have a higher tendency to vote for others with matching song/step styles. I assume most people are stepping what they're comfortable or have the most fun to, and would rate files similar to theirs higher...
but somehow when we're involved it's a giant conspiracy because someone/some people have that big of a problem with us existing or something? Grow up.I know there's been some question about my motives for entering the contest (I guess, remember week 1 with Hot Summer?) and it's clear that I'm in the minority when it comes to my tastes and preferences for files. Literally, the only reason I enter these contests is to get inspiration to make files. I don't really care about the contest aspect of it at all. So it's kinda hilarious to me to be accused of rigging votes. What exactly is at stake here? There's no prize (and I'm not saying there should be). I have a life outside of this simfile stuff, StepMania is not as high on my priorities as it used to be. I'm a grown-ass man.
It's not that complicated. I'm convinced someone/some other people have a vendetta or something against me or my friends. Probably for some dumb rude shit we did back in the day because yeah I can admit that I was such a bitch back then but I've actively tried to change and become a better person but somehow I'm still the problem? Whatever.
All I wanted to do was sign up and make cute files with my friends, so we'd have something fun to do for summer. But I guess that isn't allowed.
Post #22 · Posted at 2020-07-13 08:37:03am 3.7 years ago
| ddrstepper | |
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me when cuzco quoted me from the SC2016 thread in the middle of all this mess:
[/joke]
for real though from an outsider's perspective, this really does feel like a huge misunderstanding that was blown out of proportion. the "accused" have always had similar tastes, their voting records from previous contests show that. voting records also show that these similar tastes very rarely, if ever, had any substantial impact on the final results (see: "winners") of the contests. no matter how much y'all galaxy brain the statistics of it all, you can pick and choose what information to disclose as to tell the narrative you want to tell just like tam said, so i understand if the accused are defending themselves after being painted as contest-manipulators by the accusing party. instead of accusing or penalizing a select group of people, think of a more secure, collusion-proof voting system and offer that as a solution. if you cant think of one, thats because there might not be one. if you have an issue with that, don't participate. if you do, you're just gonna keep complaining and bringing the morale down, and from the sounds of it, it cant get much lower.
do i think this is the last summer contest? probably not. do i think this is the last summer contest with the current voting system? after this mess, i pray to god it is.
sorry if this comes across as nosy lol but when the thread is popping off like that how can i not be?
[/joke]
for real though from an outsider's perspective, this really does feel like a huge misunderstanding that was blown out of proportion. the "accused" have always had similar tastes, their voting records from previous contests show that. voting records also show that these similar tastes very rarely, if ever, had any substantial impact on the final results (see: "winners") of the contests. no matter how much y'all galaxy brain the statistics of it all, you can pick and choose what information to disclose as to tell the narrative you want to tell just like tam said, so i understand if the accused are defending themselves after being painted as contest-manipulators by the accusing party. instead of accusing or penalizing a select group of people, think of a more secure, collusion-proof voting system and offer that as a solution. if you cant think of one, thats because there might not be one. if you have an issue with that, don't participate. if you do, you're just gonna keep complaining and bringing the morale down, and from the sounds of it, it cant get much lower.
do i think this is the last summer contest? probably not. do i think this is the last summer contest with the current voting system? after this mess, i pray to god it is.
sorry if this comes across as nosy lol but when the thread is popping off like that how can i not be?
Post #23 · Posted at 2020-07-13 10:30:03am 3.7 years ago
| Quickman | |
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Bit weird after demanding an apology so hard and getting one, people are now like "well, shit, the hosts did the right thing, we didn't expect that, how can we pretend they're still being bad?" They've already admitted they were in the wrong and the accusations were bullshit. There's no need to carry on the "WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM US" narrative when they've already said they fucked up, c'mon.
It's probably because the group of people implicated included quite a lot of people who are known to be very clique-y and have been known that way for years and years. That's not an excuse for what happened, it's just what I imagine the logic(to use that word as loosely as possible) was.
Quote: tamtamino
I don't know exactly why it even happened. Were people upset about the excess of Undercover files? Is there a group of people close to the hosts that just don't like us?
It's probably because the group of people implicated included quite a lot of people who are known to be very clique-y and have been known that way for years and years. That's not an excuse for what happened, it's just what I imagine the logic(to use that word as loosely as possible) was.
Post #24 · Posted at 2020-07-13 10:59:36am 3.7 years ago
Outside observer here who did SC2011/2012:
-- Outside of a couple of the themes being bad, I don't really see how the hosts are being awful at doing their jobs? They tried to investigate a claim made to them privately, and responded quickly and respectfully once it was brought public, without arguing with any of the accused. I get that the initial PM was accusatory but, frankly, I feel like this could have easily been resolved privately and discussed on this forum once people cooled down. This is also the only good repository for DDR-style simfiles on the internet so I don't understand why so much drama has to be pulled into a high-traffic, public place; it just makes people look ridiculous.
-- Voting and chart judging has ALWAYS been suspect. I used to play files index on my numpad because I didn't have a Stepmania pad setup at the time; I imagine other people do the same thing. Some people play only heavy/challenge, some only play lower difficulties, some play every chart. Contests like these don't reward charts that have to be learned, and tend to reward X-scale 12-14s that don't doublestep or use obscure spin/crossover patterns. If you want an accurately judged contest, then you need to have a setup where a max of two charts that you want people to play are submitted, and each individual file is rated with feedback. But that's time-intensive, and I know people are going to complain about that too.
--Y'all are taking charting way too seriously when it's not that difficult to make a good DDR chart, especially when 1/2 of the spin and doublestep patterns used by Konami are considered taboo. Backtracking on this actually -- making a good chart does take some skill. Once you know the basic patterning principles though, as long as you're writing below X-scale 16s you're generally going to make a decent chart every time unless you're rushing or you're being super experimental.
-- Outside of a couple of the themes being bad, I don't really see how the hosts are being awful at doing their jobs? They tried to investigate a claim made to them privately, and responded quickly and respectfully once it was brought public, without arguing with any of the accused. I get that the initial PM was accusatory but, frankly, I feel like this could have easily been resolved privately and discussed on this forum once people cooled down. This is also the only good repository for DDR-style simfiles on the internet so I don't understand why so much drama has to be pulled into a high-traffic, public place; it just makes people look ridiculous.
-- Voting and chart judging has ALWAYS been suspect. I used to play files index on my numpad because I didn't have a Stepmania pad setup at the time; I imagine other people do the same thing. Some people play only heavy/challenge, some only play lower difficulties, some play every chart. Contests like these don't reward charts that have to be learned, and tend to reward X-scale 12-14s that don't doublestep or use obscure spin/crossover patterns. If you want an accurately judged contest, then you need to have a setup where a max of two charts that you want people to play are submitted, and each individual file is rated with feedback. But that's time-intensive, and I know people are going to complain about that too.
--
Post #25 · Posted at 2020-07-13 12:47:02pm 3.7 years ago
| forcednature | |
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Quote: ddrstepper
do i think this is the last summer contest? probably not. do i think this is the last summer contest with the current voting system? after this mess, i pray to god it is.
Honestly I agree. Going back to what shortysnmn2010 suggested a page earlier:
Quote: shortysnmn2010
I'm a big fan of the 1 - 10 (or 1 - whatever) rating system. Not only does it give me a little more detailed feedback as a participant (granted not as good as written feedback), but as a person voting it allows me a way to give that feedback easily to all entrants. We're playing the files already and know how we would rate the other files, it'd good to use that information in the rankings directly if possible. Agreed that a google form (or other means of voting) would be pretty nice here; would need to make sure ratings could be linked back to someone though (so that anonymous spamming does not happen).
...that this ^^^^^^^ NEEDS to happen, because it also kills any/most probabilities of "bias" / "cheating" while killing the feedback drought / "I don't know what I am doing wrong" problem as well. Would be VERY nice if this was implemented for coming contests.
The reason why this would work is because statistically it makes individual opinions on individual files less meaningful, and it would rather be about trying to make the file good for as many people as possible. Right now, more than 3/4 have voted 0 on my most recent file, but I do not know what they thought of it, and if it was better or worse than other files that have also been given 0 by the same people, which is not unlikely seeing how we are all now in one voting block, so obviously there's only half as people as before getting any points at all.
An average score of "6.5" or "4.1" would be way more useful than "6 points".
The way that voting could be held would be with Google Forms and each participant having to write their ZIv name on the ballot, as well as an "ID" (maybe a 6-digit number?) that everyone privately gets sent one by the contest leaders when they have to vote for the first time. This would prevent both vote-spamming by anonymous people, as well as contestants voting as someone else, seeing how they do not have the ID of that person.
Post #26 · Posted at 2020-07-13 05:22:47pm 3.7 years ago
| Astroman129 | |
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Quote: Quickman
Let's have a theme where you have to step a song with a political message. Holiday In Cambodia X-14, anybody?
Reviving this idea because we need it! Don't forget that Black Lives Matter and All Cops Are Bastards.
Post #27 · Posted at 2020-07-13 08:03:06pm 3.7 years ago
The themes were alright... to a point. ZIv Airlines should have been either the jump/shock requirement or the air/space themed requirement, not both. Originally being 100 jumps was ridiculous for how restricting it already was with the songs, and it could have been more tolerable to a lot of people if 25 was the minimum amount. Just enough to pose a challenge, but not overbearing to some. Flashback 90 was awful, both for how small the song pool was and not letting others use a different cut of other songs.
Themes aren't going to please everyone. Week 1's theme did hurt a few people due to how they chart and had to step outside their comfort zone, but that should be what happens sometimes. It was at least possible for everyone to contribute. Same with ZIv Airlines (to an extent as stated).
However, there seems to be a problem with themes that are this restrictive. Songs starting with "The" are not common. If this was "Song titles must include the word 'the'" things would open up a bit more, but it is still too much. I get the joke, but it doesn't really open up options for people.
In comparison, there was the one theme that required songs with either Up, Down, Left, or Right in the song title. That was restrictive, but not overbearingly restrictive.
Maybe it should be less trying for new themes all the time and start reusing older ones? There's plenty of really good ones that worked, and it's a new year with new entrants. We aren't going to have too many similarities between the same themes if the theme itself had a lot of things going for it.
As for voting, I think they work just fine. You aren't going to vote for 15 files in a given week anyway (and if you want to, that means it's a very good week). If collusion was happening, it would have happened years ago.
Themes aren't going to please everyone. Week 1's theme did hurt a few people due to how they chart and had to step outside their comfort zone, but that should be what happens sometimes. It was at least possible for everyone to contribute. Same with ZIv Airlines (to an extent as stated).
However, there seems to be a problem with themes that are this restrictive. Songs starting with "The" are not common. If this was "Song titles must include the word 'the'" things would open up a bit more, but it is still too much. I get the joke, but it doesn't really open up options for people.
In comparison, there was the one theme that required songs with either Up, Down, Left, or Right in the song title. That was restrictive, but not overbearingly restrictive.
Maybe it should be less trying for new themes all the time and start reusing older ones? There's plenty of really good ones that worked, and it's a new year with new entrants. We aren't going to have too many similarities between the same themes if the theme itself had a lot of things going for it.
As for voting, I think they work just fine. You aren't going to vote for 15 files in a given week anyway (and if you want to, that means it's a very good week). If collusion was happening, it would have happened years ago.
Post #28 · Posted at 2020-07-13 09:33:18pm 3.7 years ago
| hooky | |
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Quote: FoRCeDNaTuRe
Quote: ddrstepper
do i think this is the last summer contest? probably not. do i think this is the last summer contest with the current voting system? after this mess, i pray to god it is.
Honestly I agree. Going back to what shortysnmn2010 suggested a page earlier:
Quote: shortysnmn2010
I'm a big fan of the 1 - 10 (or 1 - whatever) rating system. Not only does it give me a little more detailed feedback as a participant (granted not as good as written feedback), but as a person voting it allows me a way to give that feedback easily to all entrants. We're playing the files already and know how we would rate the other files, it'd good to use that information in the rankings directly if possible. Agreed that a google form (or other means of voting) would be pretty nice here; would need to make sure ratings could be linked back to someone though (so that anonymous spamming does not happen).
...that this ^^^^^^^ NEEDS to happen, because it also kills any/most probabilities of "bias" / "cheating" while killing the feedback drought / "I don't know what I am doing wrong" problem as well. Would be VERY nice if this was implemented for coming contests.
The reason why this would work is because statistically it makes individual opinions on individual files less meaningful, and it would rather be about trying to make the file good for as many people as possible. Right now, more than 3/4 have voted 0 on my most recent file, but I do not know what they thought of it, and if it was better or worse than other files that have also been given 0 by the same people, which is not unlikely seeing how we are all now in one voting block, so obviously there's only half as people as before getting any points at all.
An average score of "6.5" or "4.1" would be way more useful than "6 points".
The way that voting could be held would be with Google Forms and each participant having to write their ZIv name on the ballot, as well as an "ID" (maybe a 6-digit number?) that everyone privately gets sent one by the contest leaders when they have to vote for the first time. This would prevent both vote-spamming by anonymous people, as well as contestants voting as someone else, seeing how they do not have the ID of that person.
I agree, the voting system should involve every file. I'm not sure it's necessary to have the votes submitted in a Google form, though. The only benefit that would have over PMs is automatic data entry, which could actually be a huge time-saver for the hosts if they consider that. But to solve the intrinsic issues of the current voting system, all that needs to change is give each file a rating between 1 and 10.
Post #29 · Posted at 2020-07-15 03:40:52am 3.7 years ago
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Thought of another fun suggestion: In addition to the standard voting, what about voting a single entry for different categories, such as: "most likely to be an extra stage", "most technical", "most balanced", "most likely to freestyle", etc. They wouldn't contribute to the overall progression of the tournament, but might be a nice flair to add.
Post #30 · Posted at 2020-07-24 02:19:35pm 3.7 years ago
| silenttype01 | |
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Here are my observations:
This thread for discussion has been open for about a month.
The ZIv Summer Contest Hosts have yet to acknowledge this thread with a reply.
Two distinct issues occurred since this thread was created and no response from the hosts
Discussions of an apology are mentioned but not shown in this thread, forcing using to sift through the primary thread for more details.
Here are my questions:
What is the function of this thread if the primary thread is still being used to discuss concerns with the tournament?
What are the proposed solutions to the concerns brought up by the participants?
Who will be involved in creating the solutions?
Will the solutions be presented to the community for review before the next tournament with ample time?
When will this thread be acknowledged by the ZIv Summer Contest hosts?
This thread for discussion has been open for about a month.
The ZIv Summer Contest Hosts have yet to acknowledge this thread with a reply.
Two distinct issues occurred since this thread was created and no response from the hosts
Discussions of an apology are mentioned but not shown in this thread, forcing using to sift through the primary thread for more details.
Here are my questions:
What is the function of this thread if the primary thread is still being used to discuss concerns with the tournament?
What are the proposed solutions to the concerns brought up by the participants?
Who will be involved in creating the solutions?
Will the solutions be presented to the community for review before the next tournament with ample time?
When will this thread be acknowledged by the ZIv Summer Contest hosts?
Post #31 · Posted at 2020-07-24 02:37:54pm 3.7 years ago
| Quickman | |
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Also minor concern: I don't think the hosts for a tournament should actually be allowed to participate in the tournament. Everybody's thoughts on the postcard, please.
Post #32 · Posted at 2020-07-24 03:03:15pm 3.7 years ago
| CLOUDIO | |
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I think this thread was aimed for discussing major rules such as voting and pack-splitting rather than concerns regarding detail of the week. But from what I see, this thread serves more like as a medium of anger pent-up rather than full-on discussion of the said rules as the host said "Any complaint posts or meta-discussion about the tournament proceedings are going to be saved until the after the contest has concluded." which I think just overflowed the complaints to this thread.
Problem that (kinda) solved by some people here right now is the voting system where the proposed method is by giving rating to each files in 1-10 scale. People already thought it's a good idea. And the thing about splitting pack, I think people here would just suck it all up as it's not as controversial as the former and some people actually liked the decision IMO.
I do think the hosts already acknowledged this thread, but they won't take complaints and such until post-contest period so this won't go anywhere ATM. And I don't see any problem on host participating in the contest as the winner is decided by highest voting score, not by judge decision.
Problem that (kinda) solved by some people here right now is the voting system where the proposed method is by giving rating to each files in 1-10 scale. People already thought it's a good idea. And the thing about splitting pack, I think people here would just suck it all up as it's not as controversial as the former and some people actually liked the decision IMO.
I do think the hosts already acknowledged this thread, but they won't take complaints and such until post-contest period so this won't go anywhere ATM. And I don't see any problem on host participating in the contest as the winner is decided by highest voting score, not by judge decision.
Post #33 · Posted at 2020-07-24 03:14:07pm 3.7 years ago
| Quickman | |
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Quote: CLOUDIO
And I don't see any problem on host participating in the contest as the winner is decided by highest voting score, not by judge decision.
My worry was that the hosts get to decide the themes. They can plan things out in advance and even already have simfiles made for the exact themes they're going to declare.
Post #34 · Posted at 2020-07-24 04:08:10pm 3.7 years ago
| eataninja | |
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Quote
Two distinct issues occurred since this thread was created and no response from the hosts
They responded in the contest thread, to be fair, and the second issue got a pretty substantial response.
Post #35 · Posted at 2020-07-24 04:09:06pm 3.7 years ago
Recently as it’s been brought to our attention from multiple people, as well as from our own observation, that there have been suspicions of people knowing the theme in advance. I decided to do a sort of audit to see everyone’s posting habits.
What we found is that you as well as a few others have seem to always have your file out within an hour of the theme being announced.
I won't be taking this public for now, but I'm certain you can see how this would look to everyone else. I won't be banning anyone, since I still have hopes that you are all still participating in the contest in good faith despite what I've shown you. This is going to be the one and only warning. Also know I will be sending this message to everyone else listed above. Please try to maintain some integrity out of respect for the other competitors. Thank you.
What we found is that you as well as a few others have seem to always have your file out within an hour of the theme being announced.
I won't be taking this public for now, but I'm certain you can see how this would look to everyone else. I won't be banning anyone, since I still have hopes that you are all still participating in the contest in good faith despite what I've shown you. This is going to be the one and only warning. Also know I will be sending this message to everyone else listed above. Please try to maintain some integrity out of respect for the other competitors. Thank you.
Post #36 · Posted at 2020-07-24 04:12:45pm 3.7 years ago
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:sadge: Fart of Twitch :sadge: Fart of Twitch :sadge: Fart of Twitch :sadge: Fart of Twitch
Post #37 · Posted at 2020-07-24 04:19:01pm 3.7 years ago
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Me since leaving the zenius-i-vanisher summer contest 2020
https://twitter.com/reactionroll/status/1253068052742041601
https://twitter.com/reactionroll/status/1253068052742041601
Post #38 · Posted at 2020-07-24 04:24:05pm 3.7 years ago
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Quote: Quickman
Also minor concern: I don't think the hosts for a tournament should actually be allowed to participate in the tournament. Everybody's thoughts on the postcard, please.
I agree from the point of view that making a file and playing all of them and voting each week is fairly time demanding, the hosts should focus that time into running the contest and addressing questions and concerns (like making a post in this thread). Never heard a good reason why the "make a song from a contest from 3 months ago" week required using the same exact cut and that was brought up by several people.
Post #39 · Posted at 2020-07-25 01:55:10am 3.7 years ago
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I noticed this thread got stickied; even if not acknowledged directly, someone's paying attention to it.
I had created this thread as a way to self contain the discussions not directly related to the tournament progression (mostly the concerns / complaints / disagreements going on). I'm very much against keeping it all inside until the end of the tournament (we still have several weeks or a month plus out), but I'm also against polluting the main tournament communications thread (it's easy to skip an important announcement with how much back and forth there is). It hasn't caught a lot of traction, but thought it'd be nice to have separate threads dedicated to different aspects of the tournament (I'm still a fan of having a third thread dedicated to feedback only).
My hope is that those planning the tournaments see the discussions and proposals in this thread and apply what's reasonable going forward. I'd be happy to help brainstorm alternative voting mechanisms (like the 1-10 scale each file) or structures (keeping a public pool of popular themes, etc), either in this thread of elsewhere.
I haven't paid close attention to it, but some of the people submitting their entries early may have several songs ready to go that happen to align with the theme (this has happened to me a couple of times - I have a dozen or so simfiles ready to do for my next pack where I needed only minor modifications to get it to fit the theme).
Agreed that the tournament planners have a slight edge in that they can prepare for the theme beforehand, but not sure if it's enough for them to not enter as well? With all the voting information released each week, knowing the theme a little beforehand is the only edge (which doesn't seem tournament changing in my opinion).
I had created this thread as a way to self contain the discussions not directly related to the tournament progression (mostly the concerns / complaints / disagreements going on). I'm very much against keeping it all inside until the end of the tournament (we still have several weeks or a month plus out), but I'm also against polluting the main tournament communications thread (it's easy to skip an important announcement with how much back and forth there is). It hasn't caught a lot of traction, but thought it'd be nice to have separate threads dedicated to different aspects of the tournament (I'm still a fan of having a third thread dedicated to feedback only).
My hope is that those planning the tournaments see the discussions and proposals in this thread and apply what's reasonable going forward. I'd be happy to help brainstorm alternative voting mechanisms (like the 1-10 scale each file) or structures (keeping a public pool of popular themes, etc), either in this thread of elsewhere.
I haven't paid close attention to it, but some of the people submitting their entries early may have several songs ready to go that happen to align with the theme (this has happened to me a couple of times - I have a dozen or so simfiles ready to do for my next pack where I needed only minor modifications to get it to fit the theme).
Agreed that the tournament planners have a slight edge in that they can prepare for the theme beforehand, but not sure if it's enough for them to not enter as well? With all the voting information released each week, knowing the theme a little beforehand is the only edge (which doesn't seem tournament changing in my opinion).
Post #40 · Posted at 2020-07-25 02:29:20am 3.7 years ago
| ledgam3r1279 | |
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The hosts also technically have an advantage in that they get to see everyone else's votes in advance before they make theirs if they want, but unless there is evidence of them using it to their advantage, I don't think that's that big of a deal either (at least it hasn't been a problem since private voting started).
