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DDR AC vs. CS Timing Windows?

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Post #1 · Posted at 2015-06-29 03:00:21am 8.7 years ago

Offline Storm_x8
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I have a question about the judgment timing windows on AC vs. CS versions that hopefully someone can answer. So, I'm aware that DDR runs at 60 frames per second and the timing windows are based off frames. From this thread I can see that for example, the marvelous window is 0.016666... seconds (or 1 frame if it runs at 60fps), and that the perfect window is 0.033333... seconds (2 frames at 60fps). Am I correct in saying that this means you can hit the note up to 0.016666 seconds before OR after it hits the judgment panel to get a marvelous (so in reality you have 2 frames to get a marvelous - 1 frame before and 1 frame after)?

I'm also curious as to how the CS timing is different. People say that it's more lenient than AC timing, but by how much? If you wanted to make the marvelous window only a tiny bit bigger, the only thing you can do is make the window 0.033333 seconds instead of 0.016666 seconds so that it's 2 frames instead of 1, but that would DOUBLE the length of the window, which I don't think is right. I feel like the CS marvelous window would be somewhere in between 1 and 2 frames long, but that's impossible because the game only runs at 60fps. Can someone explain this to me?

Post #2 · Posted at 2015-06-29 07:08:43am 8.7 years ago

Offline hooky
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I believe Marvelous and Perfect are the same. I think everything else is what changes.

Post #3 · Posted at 2015-06-29 09:35:36am 8.7 years ago

Offline Quickman
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The Marvelous window is 2 frames in console versions (I think all of them) but it's 1 frame in arcade versions.(the arcade versions that run at 60, if there were any that ran at 30 and had Marvelous timing it's probably different)
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Post #4 · Posted at 2015-06-29 06:12:51pm 8.7 years ago

Offline Zowayix
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That can't be right; otherwise we'd see numerous MFCs on console since all arcade PFCs would turn into MFCs.

If I recall correctly, the Marvelous window remains 1 frame (being the only window that stays the same between AC and CS), while the Perfect window I think is increased from 2 frames to 3 frames. This explains why PFCs feel substantially easier on console than on arcade.

@Original post: If I'm interpreting how the game mechanics work correctly, the full Marvelous window (from 'early Marvelous' to 'late Marvelous') is only 1 frame across. I'm guessing the game makes a note of which (single) frame a note has to be hit to count as a Marvelous, and hitting 1 frame earlier or later than that would turn it into a Perfect. This interpretation would also mean that full timing window are always an odd number of frames, and that getting a Perfect on a 60fps cabinet is much easier (3/60 second full window) than on a 30fps cabinet (1/30 second full window). I might be interpreting things completely wrong though.

@Storm_x8: If I recall correctly, DDR MAX onward used 60fps and was also the first game to feature Marvelous timing. 5thMIX and earlier used 30fps and only went up to Perfect, which was literally "perfect" (1 frame at 30fps) at the time. I think.

Post #5 · Posted at 2015-06-29 06:23:27pm 8.7 years ago

Offline [ICNH]
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MAX was not the first game to introduce marvelouses. That was EXTREME.

Post #6 · Posted at 2015-06-29 06:25:35pm 8.7 years ago

Offline King_Mew
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Is there a difference between the different CS games? I always felt like the Wii games had substantially easier timing windows than the PS2 games.
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Post #7 · Posted at 2015-06-29 08:40:28pm 8.7 years ago

Offline Storm_x8
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Thanks for all the info. Does this mean that we can recognize CS MFCs as being just as legit as arcade MFCs?

@Zowayix: So what you're saying is that on AC versions, there's a marvelous frame, then the frame before and the frame after are both perfects. If the perfect window is increased to 3 frames on CS, then where does that extra frame fit in? That would mean there would be 2 perfect frames on one side of the marvelous frame and only 1 perfect frame on the other side, which seems weird.

Post #8 · Posted at 2015-06-30 05:46:59pm 8.7 years ago

Offline [ICNH]
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Quote: Storm_x8
Thanks for all the info. Does this mean that we can recognize CS MFCs as being just as legit as arcade MFCs?

No.

Post #9 · Posted at 2015-06-30 07:47:18pm 8.7 years ago

Offline Zowayix
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Last updated: 2015-06-30 07:52pm
Quote: Storm_x8
@Zowayix: So what you're saying is that on AC versions, there's a marvelous frame, then the frame before and the frame after are both perfects. If the perfect window is increased to 3 frames on CS, then where does that extra frame fit in? That would mean there would be 2 perfect frames on one side of the marvelous frame and only 1 perfect frame on the other side, which seems weird.
Sorry for the subpar wording; a "3 frame" Perfect window should refer to 1 Marvelous frame with 2 Perfect frames on both sides (giving a total of 3 frames to get an early Perfect or better, and 3 frames to get a late Perfect or better). I would be very surprised if the windows were of different sizes depending on whether it was early or late.
Though again, this is just a guess at how the game mechanics behave and isn't confirmed in any way.

Quote: [ICNH
Quote: Storm_x8
Thanks for all the info. Does this mean that we can recognize CS MFCs as being just as legit as arcade MFCs?

No.
Some explanation would be preferable over a one-word answer.

Post #10 · Posted at 2015-06-30 08:11:00pm 8.7 years ago

Offline PaperSak
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Quote: [ICNH
Quote: Storm_x8
Thanks for all the info. Does this mean that we can recognize CS MFCs as being just as legit as arcade MFCs?

No.
Some explanation would be preferable over a one-word answer.
If the frame rate is all the same, maybe lack of clarification of pad type or even use of a controller...? That's about all that would make it controversial to me, at least. Whether or not the arrows are recessed and how they feel compared to the arcade ones.

Post #11 · Posted at 2015-06-30 08:26:41pm 8.7 years ago

Offline [ICNH]
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Why would they be the same? Different hardware, different pads, different engine. When have CS scores ever counted as AC ones?

Post #12 · Posted at 2015-06-30 08:33:23pm 8.7 years ago

Offline Zowayix
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^Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but why can't the same logic be used to state that a Max 300 PFC on a DDR Extreme cabinet is legit/not legit compared to a DDR X cabinet?

Post #13 · Posted at 2015-06-30 08:50:57pm 8.7 years ago

Offline tc3
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Does this explain why, in both AC and CS, it's easier to get a PFC/MFC with a higher speed modifier? Cause I never had a PFC on x1 expert but have had a few on x2 or x3 speed
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Post #14 · Posted at 2015-06-30 11:26:35pm 8.7 years ago

Offline travelsonic
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Last updated: 2015-06-30 11:28pm
Quote: [ICNH]
Why would they be the same? Different hardware, different pads, different engine.

Actually, the MAX-EXTREME PS2 engine, and the MAX-EXTREME Arcade engine are quite remarkable in their similarities, I have just begun investigating the AC mixes, but from what I am seeing so far, there may be more similarities than this statement gives credit for. Not necessarily timing related similarities per-se, but then again (since I just started investigating the engine myself), who knows?

But then again, that DOES raise some questions - since you distinguish purely by different engines, pads, and hardware running the engine, where does the line get drawn? AC mixes alone had many different hardware changes so far as what runs the game, different styles of pads/manufacturers/level of quality or lack thereof.

Post #15 · Posted at 2015-07-01 12:08:47am 8.7 years ago

Offline NicholasNRG
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Last updated: 2015-07-07 11:42pm
Quote: Zowayix
@Storm_x8: If I recall correctly, DDR MAX onward used 60fps and was also the first game to feature Marvelous timing. 5thMIX and earlier used 30fps and only went up to Perfect, which was literally "perfect" (1 frame at 30fps) at the time. I think.

AC DDR 5thMIX was the first 60FPS release, AC DDR EXTREME introduced Marvelous judgement (in Challenge mode). Smile

Post #16 · Posted at 2015-07-01 12:24:58am 8.7 years ago

Offline [ICNH]
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Quote: Zowayix
^Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but why can't the same logic be used to state that a Max 300 PFC on a DDR Extreme cabinet is legit/not legit compared to a DDR X cabinet?

My answer would be that your question is kinda moot. Is a MAX 300 PFC on Extreme the same as 2013? No, it's not. 2013 has marvelouses and a different engine compared to Extreme, and yes, if you played on an X cab or something, then the pads are different too. But if you PFC'd MAX 300 on Extreme, can you claim that you PFC'd MAX 300 on an arcade machine? Sure, you did it on Extreme. I'm having trouble articulating exactly what I mean but no one really cares about the differences between arcade mixes, since in most cases (for example, the score tracker on this site), the only thing people care about is that you did it with arcade hardware, pads, etc. CS mixes are a whole 'nother ballpark; between the differences in pads (or even controllers), timing, and other hardware/software differences, it's like apples and oranges. Treating them as separate entities is the easiest way to avoid confusion.

Post #17 · Posted at 2015-07-01 12:59:43am 8.7 years ago

Offline Zowayix
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My argument is referring to the theoretical statement "I've PFC'd Max 300". I'm having difficulty reconciling the fact that a lot of people will declare that statement completely invalid (or at least demand some kind of clarification or mitigation) if the PFC was performed on DDRMAX PS2 (to get some stuff out of the way preemptively, assume this is done on some sturdy high-quality metal pad and not a controller), but then turn around and declare it completely valid if it was done on either DDRMAX AC or DDR X AC, even though in this scenario, the engine, etc. are closer between the different versions of DDRMAX than between the two arcade cabinets.

All versions of games have different hardware, pads, engine, etc. to some extent. As long as the player doesn't use a controller, why the cutoff where it is?

Post #18 · Posted at 2015-07-01 01:24:13am 8.7 years ago

Offline [ICNH]
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Last updated: 2015-07-01 01:25am
I wouldn't agree with your claim that "the engine, etc. are closer between the different versions of DDRMAX than between the two arcade cabinets". DDRMAX AC and DDR X AC use very similar pads. In fact there's almost no difference in pad construction besides the panel decals. Meanwhile your homepad could be anything, including a controller. (I know you yourself said "assume a metal pad" but by adding that clarification, you are introducing more constraints to the scenario which weakens the argument.) While the engines are different, the frames they use for determining judgments are the same, whereas on home versions, the windows are widened. It's incredibly easy to draw the line between AC and CS. You don't have to add any more constraints. It's a lot harder to say "they're the same! Well, if you're using a metal pad and not a controller. And you do it on a mix close to the one that it's on in AC. Etc."

Maybe this is a better way to think about it: when wondering about the legitimacy of some score, ask yourself "could it have been done on [insert whatever other scenario you're thinking of]?" For example, if I PFC'd MAX 300 on DDRMAX CS, and asked myself "could it have been done on DDR MAX AC?" the answer would be no. Any one of my steps could have been in the great window on AC but in the perfect window on CS. Now, what about if I PFC'd MAX 300 on DDRMAX AC, and was thinking about if I could do it on X. Could I? Yeah, probably. The engine is different, but that wouldn't really have a significant impact. If anything there would be an adjustment period, but I could probably do it.

Now if you're thinking, "but what about the MFC argument from before?", I'll just offer this: if you really think that MFCing something on a home version is the same as MFCing in an arcade setting, then MFC something at home and try to do it in the arcade. If you can do it, great, you've given some credence to the argument that maybe CS MFCs are as legitimate as AC MFCs. But I don't think you'll find that it's so easy.

And keep in mind these are just my own thoughts. I certainly don't claim to be the one source of truth and knowledge, but I've been around a while and I know from experience the intricacies between mixes, setups, machines, and a lot more. I've been playing this game for a long ass time.

Post #19 · Posted at 2015-07-01 01:37:36am 8.7 years ago

Offline Zowayix
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Last updated: 2015-07-02 11:19pm
Thanks for the explanation and for the "could it have been done" explanation which makes a lot of sense. I'll argue that your last point regarding MFCs is rather weak though, since getting an MFC under any circumstances is so incredibly hard that it also becomes very hard to measure whether one of "obtaining a CS MFC" and "obtaining an AC MFC" is only slightly harder than the other one (when the easier of the two, if any, is already incredibly hard). Combine this with the fact that most players with the skill level to get MFCs with any kind of regularity pretty much never play on CS, and that obscures things even further.

Since it's nearly objectively measurable that the CS Marvelous window and the AC Marvelous window are the same size, then there ought to be almost no distinct difference in difficulty between obtaining an MFC on one platform or the other.

Post #20 · Posted at 2015-07-01 07:10:10pm 8.7 years ago

Offline travelsonic
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Quote: [ICNH]
I wouldn't agree with your claim that "the engine, etc. are closer between the different versions of DDRMAX than between the two arcade cabinets"..

Maybe I AM majorly brainfarting, but this statement confuses me (the one in quotes)... heh.


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