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Post #21 · Posted at 2012-05-04 12:35:47am 2.6 years ago

Offline Max
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Did not know about that bit of information. The more I know I guess...

Post #22 · Posted at 2012-05-04 01:01:13am 2.6 years ago

Offline DDRmaster2007
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Say Bye Bye to DDR N.A. AC releases ?
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Post #23 · Posted at 2012-05-04 02:56:53am 2.6 years ago

Offline Daiz
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The only problem with equating DDR's fad into it's current status as a franchise is that DDR is a video game. Yes, it was a temporary crazy among many, but one would hardly call DDR a fad in Japan. PIU isn't considered a fad, neither are fighting games, racing games or redemption games. At most major arcades or entertainment establishments (bowling alleys, amusement parsk, etc), DDR or any rhythm based game involving your feet can be considered a staple addition. ITG and PIU seem to be immune to their status being related to how popular it is in current culture where DDR is constantly being thrown under the "it's not what I remember it to be so it's dying" bus.

But like I said, DDR is a video game that happens to require something different than the normal hands only input. I see the "<insert company> sucks and <insert game> is dying because <insert company> fuxored it up, yo!". Show me anything with a fanbase and an online community and I will quickly pull out a dozen threads about that particular hobby/game/whatever being on the verge of death.

This isn't to say DDR isn't as popular as it used to be, but I will bet that DDR today is just as popular as it was 2 years ago, maybe even 4 years ago. It was a fad to popular culture but the game still has a fanbase and continues to gain new players. It just doesn't seem as such because it cannot ever get that initial explosive growth it had back in 2001-2003 when DDR was new to everyone.

Post #24 · Posted at 2012-05-04 03:10:20am 2.6 years ago

Offline OmnislashF8
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Quote: Daiz
one would hardly call DDR a fad in Japan.
I said in the US

Quote: Daiz
can be considered a staple addition.
So much so that no one makes new cabs anymore :p

Quote: Daiz
Show me anything with a fanbase and an online community and I will quickly pull out a dozen threads about that particular hobby/game/whatever being on the verge of death.
Magic the Gathering has been going strong and gaining a larger fanbase of players since it was first created back in 1993.

Quote: Daiz
it cannot ever get that initial explosive growth it had back in 2001-2003 when DDR was new to everyone.
Yes, and this is why it was a fad. In my personal travels I have seen a great deal of players and machines, and these days there are never any lines or really even any people playing DDR (even those that do play I notice are generally 18+ years old). Look even at the online community; Ziv has only a handful of active posting members (relative to the 'fanbase' that existed for this series back in the day), DDR Freak is a wasteland, and just about any other once popular DDR-centric site is barren. It's not new and the younger generation in the US does not care for it in the same way that sparked the interest of the masses back when the game came out.
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Post #25 · Posted at 2012-05-04 03:16:55am 2.6 years ago

Offline Max
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Oh boy, I fear this thread is going to start spiraling out of control in the next few pages...

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Post #26 · Posted at 2012-05-04 05:35:40am 2.6 years ago

Offline PaperSak
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Well, fads go in cycles. DDR semi-died around '03, I guess. Played DDR just before SN's release, so it's hard to say. Maybe it'll be one of those games that people forget about for a while. Then, some years later, Konami can profit on how much people miss it and temp bring it back.

Wishfully thinking.

The slight edge DDR has over Just Dance/ Dance Central is that it's a lot flipping easier, imo. They both look about as silly if you don't know what you're doing. Just hoping for hope.
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Post #27 · Posted at 2012-05-04 09:02:19am 2.6 years ago

Offline G4m3pr0
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Last updated: 2012-05-04 09:08am
You know, as much as I might get -5'd for this, I'd have to say music game fans are to blame for the genre's decline. With hate for just about everything for these dancing games, and nobody offering to speak up, there's no future for the games here. DDR II was made with the fans in mind, and the game turned out the way it did because of the fan response on Konami's Facebook page. We need to continue with constructive feedback in the U.S.:

Wrong: MORE DDR!!
Right: I think it's in your best interest to start seriously considering future DDR AC releases here in the states. DDR has become a major pastime for millions of people in the states, and we don't want to see such a revolution in gaming taken away. It's a great form of exercise. Millions would benefit from playing the games. It's never time to call it quits.

See what I'm trying to say?

If you just fire off one e-mail, that doesn't solve anything. We need to get our message heard, not just to Konami, but to the arcade operators as well. After all, they're the ones making the decisions on whether or not to buy the machines. Keep playing at the arcades. If the operators make money off of these machines, then they'll show interest in maybe getting an upgrade.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on this issue. If you don't agree with what I have to say, fine. I just wanted to give my opinions on what's going on and what can possibly be done about this issue.

Oh yeah, and:

Quote: Daiz
I see the "<insert company> sucks and <insert game> is dying because <insert company> fuxored it up, yo!". Show me anything with a fanbase and an online community and I will quickly pull out a dozen threads about that particular hobby/game/whatever being on the verge of death.

...this.

Post #28 · Posted at 2012-05-04 09:49:23am 2.6 years ago

Offline Pandemonium X
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Quote: G4m3pr0
You know, as much as I might get -5'd for this, I'd have to say music game fans are to blame for the genre's decline. With hate for just about everything for these dancing games, and nobody offering to speak up, there's no future for the games here. DDR II was made with the fans in mind, and the game turned out the way it did because of the fan response on Konami's Facebook page. We need to continue with constructive feedback in the U.S.:
We can be a angry bunch I will admit that. But it is because we love the game and hate to see it turn to crap. DDRII was a great game and I wish more would come out. DDRII was more then a step in the right, it was a jump. DDRII brought US DDR out of the dark ages of X1 AC and DDR2010. Komani has switched their DDR focus to home versions because arcades are near death in the US. They really have no choice but to bring DDR to homes when you look at it cost wise.

You are 100% right about constructive feedback. We need more "I would like DDR to bring back edit more. I really miss making my own steps and showing them to friends" and less "BRING BACK ITG DDR SUX." I think if we give more constructive feedback on what we want in DDRIII, it can be as good as it once was if not even better! Happy
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Post #29 · Posted at 2012-05-04 09:58:07am 2.6 years ago

Offline G4m3pr0
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Quote: Pandemonium X
You are 100% right about constructive feedback. We need more "I would like DDR to bring back edit more. I really miss making my own steps and showing them to friends" and less "BRING BACK ITG DDR SUX." I think if we give more constructive feedback on what we want in DDRIII, it can be as good as it once was if not even better! Happy

That's the spirit! Wink

Post #30 · Posted at 2012-05-04 11:09:07am 2.6 years ago

Offline Nightime
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Last updated: 2012-05-04 11:18am
A little more twist back to undergroundy music was all DDR II needed to really pull off some groundbreaking stuff. That, and apparently getting their PS3/360 engines fine-tuned. I still would settle for a downloadable add-on for the songs, even; or a late release.

But it's also quite true that DDR is not new or fresh, and nothing is ever going to be that, AND still be true-to-form. And where the existing fanbase is concerned, it's really hard to find a good direction to "expand."

-Stepcharts can't really get any harder than Valkyrie Dimension Heavy or 888 Challenge without entering the realm of "retardedly absurd." As far as scoring and challenge goes, we're just getting really absurdly good at the game. Does it need to get harder? I don't really think it does.

-Additional modes like Move & Step, Quad, Octo, etc. don't really catch on too much for one reason or another. Even shock arrows are still arguably unpopular.

-Newer modifiers like the kind that unalign the step zone are more frustrating than challenging.

-Good stepchart quality is tried-and-tested, and on some level, unwaveringly predictable; while trying new types of charts just ends up making them flow badly. The mixed opinion of "jun boss" songs shows that, and that's in direct response to "no more insaneo BPM trickery charts" like the Fascinations, SABER WINGS, and Plutos.

-DDR X's Xmixes seem well-recieved, but with no more KDEA-DDR crew to implement them, they're just not happening anymore, unfortunately. DDR 2010/II did long versions which are also well-received by the community, but did not commodify 2010 enough to sell majorly, or overcome II's one-console-only presence.

-SuperNOVA (and 2) solidified the global arcade market (since technically, all EXTREME cabs are pirates), but the home versions remained really disparitied. X nearly solidified console -and- home releases together, but only within the PS2 market. DDR 2010 solidified as a multi-console release, but lacked on arcade development. And who the heck knows what all happened between X2 arcade, X2 PS2, HP3, Universe 3 and DDR II. That was just... well, it's basically the new DDR EXTREME, except we don't get a "Japan Home Version" to lean on this time. It's just scrambled. And if anything, X3 vs. 2nd Mix is just Japan catching up with US, now.
(And I get the feeling we'll never see a home version with "Be your wings" or "Super Driver".) ;.;

-After Fascination MAXX, DEAD END (Groove Radar Special), Pluto The First, the X-Specials, and gems like A Geisha's Dream (Ruffage Remix), it's easy to see why people are getting out while the getting's good. About the only DDR game I'm actively looking forward to (besides some of X3's stages) is a nice compilation of the absolute-must-experience, never-gets-old songs and charts (and modes) across the series. And yes, I'm counting the Ultramix/Universe series in that as well. Their taste in music and stepcharts got ridiculously awesome.
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Post #31 · Posted at 2012-05-04 11:23:06am 2.6 years ago

Offline PaperSak
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Last updated: 2012-05-04 11:23am
This is why they need to bank on the characters. It's the most original content they have.
I mean come on. You play as a robot with a plug for a head and a Zukin. We still don't know what a Zukin is.

*crickets chirp anyway*

... they could make a couple dimes off of merchandise, at least. X2's AC pages and Rinon's story filled me with joy and then... X3 happened. Not sure when they're going back to that.
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Post #32 · Posted at 2012-05-04 11:33:31am 2.6 years ago

Offline Xavious
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The music and rhythm genre moved on and DDR never caught up. Konami meandered and failed to keep the series relevant enough and now it's too niche within its own genre for people to care.
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Post #33 · Posted at 2012-05-04 12:18:18pm 2.6 years ago

Offline seishinbyou
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Nighttime> I agree with most of what you said except for one thing that really stood out

Quote: Nightime
-Good stepchart quality is tried-and-tested, and on some level, unwaveringly predictable; while trying new types of charts just ends up making them flow badly. The mixed opinion of "jun boss" songs shows that, and that's in direct response to "no more insaneo BPM trickery charts" like the Fascinations, SABER WINGS, and Plutos.

...no it's not, not on any level is it a definite objectively-judged standard. What is "good" is completely subjective. I'd even go so far as to say most songs in DDR have fine "flow" in the sense "left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot..." to step out a pattern. The popular BS stance on crap like "Stepmania Science" or "Step Rhetoric" is that "flow" also implies "optimized for foot speed", all the while shunning techniques like foot switches and crossovers as "cheap" even though these are very basic skills and they somehow got lost in the West when everything switched focus to making everything optimized for foot speed and having the player facing directly at the screen, not wavering to compromise some kind of optimal position. Then again, this is about the American series and the take on things from the American point of view, so the fact that the East has radically different stances on these things is perhaps irrelevant to the topic at hand.


Back on topic, I'm not surprised given the less-than-stellar reception of Betson's work with X/X2. Also, arcades in the West are a rarity, so it probably doesn't make much financial sense to pour too much money into arcade releases, unfortunately :/

In the East, the music game genre is still thriving and some arcades have extremely large sections of the arcade devoted just to music games. DDR isn't in every arcade, but most have at least a few of the more popular games. Importantly, there aren't really 1-series-only fans of music games anymore. People are general music game fans in Japan now. Some players have their niche game and like one more than another, but they are all part of a bigger family. It is the series of music games that lives on more so than any one game, and that is due in part to arcades still thriving here and such a welcoming atmosphere created by the arcades and players.
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Post #34 · Posted at 2012-05-04 12:50:40pm 2.6 years ago

Offline Nightime
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Flow != "Optimized." That, IMHO, is the biggest thing that seperates ITG from DDR. By "flow," I mean charts that make sense and are actually fun to execute. And yes, many of them involve sideways-turning or the occasional 360 turns. Bear in mind, you're talking to the 1% of ZiV here that actually likes New York EVOLVED. Cool
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Post #35 · Posted at 2012-05-04 12:54:37pm 2.6 years ago

Offline seishinbyou
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"I mean charts that make sense and are actually fun to execute"

Mhmm, that is what I'm getting at. I like charts that are like puzzles that require all sorts of awkard and fun twists and turns, as does a good chunk of the Eastern player base.

Wait, what are we arguing about?
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Post #36 · Posted at 2012-05-04 01:00:11pm 2.6 years ago

Offline Zukin-Man
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We still don't know what a Zukin is.

Different Zukins were different things.

- Maid-Zukin was an android.
- Devil-Zukin was a physical manifestation of Oshare-Zukin's dark side.
- Queen-Zukin is some dream-travelling something-or-another.

Fuck if I know what the rest of them are.

Post #37 · Posted at 2012-05-04 01:21:10pm 2.6 years ago

Offline AeronPeryton
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Zukin means "hood".

Kero-zukin = Frog hood

It was just a humanoid "thing" that wore different hats, so to speak, to a theme. My guess would be "she" is a jester of some sort.

-----

One thing I noticed about DDR is that in Japan, and all of Asia, arcades are practical. Outside of that region, they aren't. So it makes sense to me that the console games are doing well in America and Europe while the arcade machine fall to pieces, and the arcade games are doing well in Japan and Asia while the console games are collecting dust on store shelves.

Konami's gotten global interest in Bemani outside of the arcade on iOS... but only for games like jubeat. DDR was meant to be played with feet so DDR S kinda burnt out.

DDR is still popular, but it's not the wildfire it was ten years ago. They can't maintain it in a market that's only marginal anymore. Personally, I would be pleased as punch if their plan is just to make DDR III for the West and DDR X4 VS 3rdMIX for Asia. That's what's working right now, go with that unless things change.

Post #38 · Posted at 2012-05-04 01:23:03pm 2.6 years ago

Offline Zukin-Man
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Pretty sure she meant the Zukin characters, not an itemized zukin.

Post #39 · Posted at 2012-05-04 04:02:12pm 2.6 years ago

Offline Nightime
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It's quite possible that the "musical game genre" has hit a plateau, much like fighters did in '99/2000; and then they remained rather scarce for an entire decade. People may need some cooloff time, but I'm really hoping it's not THAT MUCH of it! At this point, it's more about quality over quantity, and if a good title takes a 2-year dev cycle to happen, it's worth it. Just a shame corporations don't usually think that way, huh? (Instead, they tend to tank it for a year or two, or indefinitely until fan response speaks out.)

I'm also wondering when Rock Band is gonna start charting full albums again, rather than the splotch of singles every here and there.

Back on topic: I can see why Betson would remove X2 from their list. The last thing they want other clients seeing is how their corner-cutting nearly crippled an otherwise terrific and successful product.
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Post #40 · Posted at 2012-05-04 04:24:27pm 2.6 years ago

Offline Daiz
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The thing is, you cannot really equate DDR as an arcade game with the waxing/waning of the music game fad on the consoles. DDR as a fad was separate from music gaming as a fad. DDR's prime was in what, 01 to 03? Music gaming prime came after that.

As for anyone's claim that Konami's charts are killing DDR, I agree with Aaron. The bulk of DDR's fanbase resides in Japan, not America and I would bet that's who they cater to. Konami decided to make the DDR 2010/DDR II charts trickier by forcing double steps (or spins if you will) that requires a different technique from straight forward charts and the Asian fans tend to enjoy it it seems. "Well the Asian fans are broken!" Well remember, one of the biggest complaint was that America wasn't getting what Japan got in terms of content (and hardware). We got what Japan got before Japan got it. America hated it, Japan likes it. Remember, Konami's goal isn't to "inject artificial difficulty" by Stepmania terms (or "Stepmania Logic"), it's to draw in players to do a routine to a song that people find enjoyable. Sometimes that's a difficult chart, sometimes it's an easier chart, sometimes it's a chart you have to stand back and go "hm, I keep missing this step, I need to rethink how I'm trying to hit those arrows."

I completely understand what Aarons is saying about charts being like a puzzle. Once again, DDR is a video game and one way to create a new level in a game is to apply elements of the game in new combinations that shake the player's insistence to use the same techniques as before. There isn't necessarily "more" of those elements, just a different combination that requires a different technique to take on the challenge.
           
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