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DDR X2 Upgrade Drifting Bug

     
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Post #1 · Posted at 2011-09-07 03:22:30am 2.6 years ago

Offline al2k4 Chatting
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Last updated: 2011-09-09 12:51am
DDR X2 Upgrade Drifting Bug

A few weeks ago at Las Vegas, London, I played on a DDR X2 which has this bug. The cabinet was an upgraded cab that was originally a DDR X. Everything was spot on except for the syncing, which in a music-orientated game you expect to be spot on; sadly, it isn't.

At the start of a song, the arrows will be perfectly in time with the music, but about 10 seconds in, you start to become increasingly aware that the sync is starting to drift with the arrows lagging further and further behind.

On every song I have played, the lag by the end of the song was no less than 250ms late and that is not even exaggerating, almost an entire beat off or maybe even more depending on the song, which is completely unacceptable in a DDR game. Even the casual players will notice the game being extremely off sync. The game is literally unplayable.

I find it absolutely ridiculous that the pioneers of the dance game genre cannot issue a fix this simple problem and because of this issue alone, I cannot actively promote the game to arcade operators convincing them to upgrade their DDR Xs nor can I recommend someone else to play the game as it stands unless they solely want to know how bad the bug is.

People are actively refusing to play this game due to this and are playing other games that are available including rival games, and it is very disappointing to see a game with such great potential go to this stage. It will continue this way until this gets patched!

This issue has also been reported on the upgraded cabinets in Blackpool too.

We are simply amazed at the lack of testing and quality assurance this game has gone through for Europe.


I urge anyone that has first-hand experience of this bug to post your experience here including any photos or videos.

I also urge Konami to get this bug fixed and resolved once and for all, as this is not only damaging player loyalty to Konami's DDR, but your overall reputation and capability as an arcade game producer in Europe.

AFFECTED HARDWARE/SOFTWARE:

Software Version: JDX:E:A:A:2010120700
Cabinet: UPGRADED DDR X MACHINES ONLY
Locations: London, Blackpool, France, Wales

Bug: Song is on-sync with the arrows at the start of the song but will eventually drift off-sync to at least 250-300ms late by the end of the song.


Video by SentureUK, London

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2351933/greaf.jpg
Photo by Greaf, France

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2351933/X2_02.jpg

Post #2 · Posted at 2011-09-07 03:24:26am 2.6 years ago

Offline Brazen
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I completely agree with the comments above, Andamiro would never release a product with issues like this. Why do KONAMI think this is acceptable?
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Post #3 · Posted at 2011-09-07 03:32:13am 2.6 years ago

Offline TaroNuke
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So I was playing on this machine (Las Vegas, Central London), and ontop of the sync issue (which is VERY prevalent), any specific arrow on one side always seems to be broken, which doesn't seem to be the case in American or Japanese arcades.

The sync is a much bigger issue though, with it being very difficult to score anything above a D when playing perfectly on beat.
The sync starts out with Marvelous-perfect on the beat, but after about 10 seconds, you can ONLY get greats hitting on the beat.
Towards the end of the song, you may also find "Good" to be increasingly more common.

The perfect/marvelous timing window is actually lagging noticeably behind the song.

What on earth happened during testing that could cause anyone to miss this bug?

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Post #4 · Posted at 2011-09-07 03:41:24am 2.6 years ago

Offline Oni-91 Chatting
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Post #5 · Posted at 2011-09-07 04:24:36am 2.6 years ago

Offline ghostfoxxkilla
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So I was playing on this machine (Las Vegas, Central London), and well I picked a Song [Under The Sky] and well it felt fine at first and during half way through the song, it felt off-sync.

I know that this is an updated cab and maybe it might have none of these problem but I really can't believe that I can't AA/AAA a simple song like that.

But anyway I think that cab has to go and bring in a JP cab as a better replacement. But I do agree with everyone comment and this has to be sorted out by Konami and get this sorted out asap.
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Post #6 · Posted at 2011-09-07 04:24:47am 2.6 years ago

Offline yindesu
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disclaimer: First, I have heard of all the European machines having sync drift. I'm not positive if all of them are upgrades from X, or if they're new X2 cabinets, but either way it sounds like a different LCD than the one found in American X2 cabinets is being used... and it's indeed quite likely Betson didn't test this hardware combination at all.

Also, I've never heard of an X->X2 upgrade in America. It made me wonder whether software upgrade kits actually existed... but it seems in Europe all you have are software upgrade kits. (Except for that French dedicab.)

Quote: Brazen
I completely agree with the comments above, Andamiro would never release a product with issues like this. Why do KONAMI think this is acceptable?

I hate to keep on repeating myself, and it's not entirely on-topic, but:

-Andamiro would give the US, Russia, Ukraine, Italy, etc. some really shitty pads which are absolute hell to play on. (Panels feel extremely stiff, sensors do not trigger easily, provided-out-of-the-box sensors are already broken, physical measurements of the insides of the pads do not match up properly. This is why foam modding is not fixing the problem completely, whereas inserting a rigid object under the sensor has helped the machine in eastern Europe more than foam.)
-For over 2 months Andamiro has turned all American (and then some) players into Mongolians, locking us out of all the unlocks in Fiesta EX that aren't new features of software patches
-Andamiro would allow water to soak into the pads used at a World Pump Festival 2011 machine for over 10 minutes, resulting in all participants complaining about stickiness which was not addressed (there was a lot of Freestyle drama at WPF 11 as well)
-unrelated to Pump It Up, Andamiro's crane/redemption games have a pretty horrible reputation with many arcade operators according to coin-op forums

tl;dr: Andamiro isn't anywhere near the saint people make them out to be.

(At Round1 in California, we have 3 of Andamiro's bracketless pad machines. A ~2010 FX Pro 2, then an FX Fiesta, then a TX Fiesta EX. The Pro 2 has great pads, but the Fiesta and Fiesta EX actually feel and sound different to play on, and have the problems mentioned in bullet point number one. Thus why I am so confident in going around claiming that Andamiro's new work is shoddy trash. (I am completely aware old-style Pump pads are fairly bulletproof, having played at a Dave & Buster's outside California with one.))

It is my completely honest opinion that Konami gives a hell of a lot more of a damn about us Westerners than Andamiro does. I have no doubt they did complain to Betson about a lot of our grievances, but at the end of the day, Andamiro isn't doing us any more of a favor than Betson is hardware/software-wise.

Of course, none of these facts excuses either Betson or Andamiro for fucking with us... it's just that most people don't realize what Andamiro's new work has been like the past year or two.

Now, on the topic of Betson DDR:
The only way I can see to force change is to complain and make our complaints known very clearly to the arcade operators, both by explaining to those who want to listen what's wrong, and by not putting your money in that machine after they know what we thi nk is wrong. Otherwise we don't have a realistic way of grabbing Betson's attention.

For example, it's obvious Betson realized that their sensors were shit because they were backordered less than 6 months after the release of the international cabinet, and they designed new ones. (Of course, the new ones actually have less longevity than the old ones, as they now only last ~2 weeks before crapping out...) I'm sure complaints from operators were a major part in getting a sensor redesign at all. (Hopefully we get another redesign.)

Post #7 · Posted at 2011-09-07 04:30:35am 2.6 years ago

Offline al2k4 Chatting
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Last updated: 2011-09-07 04:31am
With the topic in hand right now and is especially true in London, people are playing PIU over DDR X2 due to the fact the drifting bug exists.

America is free from this bug due to the fact there are no upgraded DDR Xs in America.

It's so bad that Konami did not even bother to test the software on upgraded DDR Xs and just released it and is being sold to arcade operators right now.

Post #8 · Posted at 2011-09-07 07:05:24am 2.6 years ago

Offline TsukiyoX
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I hope you guys get the patch. I wish they did something about the Asian X2 machines too, with updating the songlist :p
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Post #9 · Posted at 2011-09-07 08:37:57pm 2.6 years ago

Offline Illustrial
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Yep, this issue is incredibly noticeable on the Blackpool machines I play on. I only live a few minutes away, and go to them pretty frequently, and get constantly annoyed by this issue.

Similarly to the picture on the OP, my friend ends up with a similar ratio of greats to other arrows, I tend to be able to adapt slightly (but still get heaps of greats, even when I'm still in time with the music).

This issue does seriously annoy me though - I've not even been able to PFC a beginner song Sad

Post #10 · Posted at 2011-09-08 03:24:16am 2.6 years ago

Offline MUTE
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Syncing issues in a DDR game?

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Post #11 · Posted at 2011-09-08 08:27:04am 2.6 years ago

Offline hooky
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What on earth happened during testing that could cause anyone to miss this bug?
They tested the upgrades?
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Post #12 · Posted at 2011-09-08 10:46:46am 2.6 years ago

Offline ddr_ray
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Hmm, it reminded me of this issue on X. But it was the opposite way; the arrow came faster~

I guess someone screwed up the bpm raw value for all the X2 songs...
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Post #13 · Posted at 2011-09-08 11:05:54am 2.6 years ago

Offline s3phy
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I can definitely confirm this, although I have only played once on an european X2, it was an upgrade from X (I talked about it here) and I clearly felt the off-sync & drift. I don't think I took pictures of the score between each song (too busy catching my breath Puppy Face), I may only have this overall picture :

http://s3phy.ecchi.ca/upload/thumbs/ddr-x2-lag.jpg

(Can't check my pictures folder right now, my external HD is not working anymore in USB and my laptop doesn't have eSATA...)

I didn't complain about the lag & drift to the owners of the arcade at the time... I did talk a bit with them, they told me it was an upgrade from X and that it has been upgraded just a few weeks ago (at the time, late February)... And as far as they knew, back then it was the only X2 in France. Didn't talk about lag and drift because I thought it might had been just me, I hadn't played in a while and never got used to DDR X's sync.

I know that these issues with DDR X2 (namely: drift, sync, and pad crap) are the reasons why the arcade in Bordeaux, Causeway Bay, is holding back on buying an X2. The owner (a friend) won't consider buying it until these issues are fixed... He thinks he's better with his actual japanese SN2, and I believe he's right.

And sorry for my english if I made huge grammar/conjugation errors Blushing

Edit : Just saw the video in the first post and that's exactly the same thing I witnessed in Chambéry.

Post #14 · Posted at 2011-09-09 12:37:46am 2.6 years ago

Offline Dancefreak
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Ive only played X2 once at Troc before it closed, i opened with EZ DO DANCE and had a AAA with only a few perfects up till about 30 seconds in, then all of a sudden my marvelous' were perfects and perfects were greats for no reason, gradually it got worse and worse and i ended the song with a B by playing on Time as opposed to compensating for this horrible amount of lag.

The pattern was the same for all 3 stages sadly except for the third stage the left arrow got jammed and i nearly failed out after about a minute.

Considering Andamiro are trying to get a worldwide release for pump (Despite the crud some arcades get with these new pad designs, ive NEVER had an issue from playing on one of the new cabs at all, even on cabinets people claim are "Unplayable"... so ive no idea if its just my playing style or if people are so used to perfectly accurate pads...) konami really need to pull their finger out and fix the problem or ensure it isnt in X3 vs 2nd mix although to be fair ill be amazed if we see that get a release over here after how this game pretty much hasnt ended up anywhere, i think theres been what 3 in the UK ? All of which were unplayable except the one in wolverhampton which got pulled out after a month. Fiesta didnt have sync issues even with timing windows as big as they are, ive had no issues with any of the songs except for one or two remixes which have been around since zero.

just my input on the issue but basically it needs fixing or we wont see anymore DDR Arcade releases over here except for imports and i personally have no idea why people hate so much on the new andamiro pads at all. They work fine for me regardless if i play heavy or light footed socks or shoes.

Post #15 · Posted at 2011-09-09 09:21:01pm 2.6 years ago

Offline Mercury
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X2's gameplay is shit on these cabs so it's no wonder no-one's buying them.

I think I'll stick with EM2 and imported mixes unless Konami sorts this out once and for all. FWIW Japanese X upgrades are spot-on.
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Post #16 · Posted at 2011-09-11 07:44:52pm 2.6 years ago

Offline DancingNinja
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I'll admit, I thought Senture was being childish when he said the machine was offsync, last time I played it (17th July) I nearly AA'd Mugen on it. I thought "what the hell is he bitching about? The machine's fine :/". OK, the pads were a bit meh, but it was definitely playable. Sucks that it's become worse though.

Wales has an X2? Unless someone forgot to add it, I don't remember seeing one, there's just the DDR X upgrade I played on in Barry Island. Pretty good condition, I SDG'd Raspberry Hearts on it. Smile

It's tempting to say "who cares? Dance games are dead anyway" especially as someone who's lost interest in them. However, as someone who was interested, I can understand why you're frustrated; Konami could be doing a lot better than this. Hell I reckon the arcade scene could make a comeback if they actually gave a damn about the machines (this goes both ways, arcade ops as well as Konami). In the meanwhile, there's always older mixes/ITG/PIU to keep you going. Smile

Post #17 · Posted at 2011-09-12 12:33:51am 2.6 years ago

Offline PortalLife
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Oh well.. I was looking forward to playing X2 in a arcade but if all the ones in the UK have this bug im kinda screwed.

Post #18 · Posted at 2011-09-12 12:35:25am 2.6 years ago

Offline Tyma
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Quote: DancingNinja

Wales has an X2? Unless someone forgot to add it, I don't remember seeing one, there's just the DDR X upgrade I played on in Barry Island. Pretty good condition, I SDG'd Raspberry Hearts on it. Smile

When did you last play it? It's probably an X2 by now.

Post #19 · Posted at 2011-09-12 12:58:55am 2.6 years ago

Offline DancingNinja
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Tyma, I played it about two months ago (16th July). Was in Cardiff for the week with a friend so I thought I'd check it out. Smile

Post #20 · Posted at 2011-09-14 05:26:03am 2.6 years ago

Offline Brazen
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Stepping audibly:


Stepping visually:


Results Screen:
http://brazen.zenius-i-vanisher.com/other/x2drift.png

Conclusion
Overall I have come to the conclusion that X2 machines running on X1 hardware have no issues with "HD" lag, however what is apparent is that only the audio clearly drifts from what the machine is expecting. This is probably likely to do with the fact that X1 PC's use a Dell Optiplex 740 whereas X2 runs on a Optiplex 500.

I am in regular discussions with relevant people to try and resolve this issue, and I would like to thank all of your support in posting comments, as they will all be passed on.
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