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Post #21 · Posté à 2011-08-17 09:49:39am il y a 3.3 années

Offline hellrazor
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Quote: Ryuzaki573
I'm seeing a connection of this and 'Aegis and the Beggar' in that they're both about helping someone in need. It's just that when you actually SEE a homeless person with your own eyes and in person, a certain connection is made when you see the desperation or whatever that can't come through, say, a TV. Most people find it easier, or perhaps more reassuring, when they see what they've donated going straight to the hands of who needs it. Giving a homeless person money means pulling something out of your pocket, which lasts all of ten seconds, if that. Donating to foreign countries means calling a phone number, donating an amount of dollars that you actually have to think about, and all that good stuff. It's much more complicated, and donators don't know the people that they've just donated to. Humans act differently when the circumstances differ, and that's just the way the world works.

I think another factor of this is intimidation. All the time, you hear about Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Richard Branson or whoever donating X billion to charities. Humans like to mimic each other. But when a donator can't match up to a super CEO's amount, they don't donate what they can, they drop out altogether. Some people, whether they like it or not, have subconciously twisted a giving game into a sadistic competition they just can't win.

The scuba diver is NOT a criminal, murderer, or a bad person at all just because he chooses not to give what he has, and neither is anybody else in the world who chooses not to donate to third-world countries. He has what he has and the kids have what they have. If he chooses to give what he has to the kids, that's great. But if he doesn't, then there's no reason to call him a murderer. And if there really was a 60% chance the oxygen wouldn't make it, that's another reason for him to withdraw. If the deaths of the "kids" were inevitable, then what REAL reason was there to donate anyway?

~Ryuzaki573, Unofficial 13-year-old Philosopher
Plus the CEO's of the charity that you donate to who has a 6 or 7 figure income along with many perks. I remember when working at the airport and seeing three nuns in the Salvation Army uniform travelling business class (tickets for First were about $5000, Business $3000, Coach $800) to London Heathrow from LAX on British Airways and I thought that was a terrible waste of money. But then I also remember in Vegas walking to my hotel because I was just out and about but broke (visiting family and staying at a hotel) and a homeless man asked for $ so I offered all the change I had (probably $1.50) he said he only wanted Green, not change, I told him that if I had Green I'd ride the city bus rather than walk the street. When the biggest problem with homess is drug addiction and obesity, giving to the homeless just doesn't feel that good either, but I still end up supporting our local church which has some local charity services, and the United Way because my job highly encourages me to do that.

Post #22 · Posté à 2011-08-17 10:30:52am il y a 3.3 années

Online Pie-kun Chatting
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Actually, I'd say the biggest problem with the homeless is mental illness. A few decades ago, many mental institutions were closed down in order to save money and they purged a lot of the less-extreme patients out onto the streets, which is why you see so many crazy homeless people. When you live as close to downtown LA as I do, you see tons of them.

Post #23 · Posté à 2011-08-17 10:34:12am il y a 3.3 années

Offline aeubanks
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I think that the people debating about giving money to the homeless should post it in the thread it was made for.

Post #24 · Posté à 2011-08-17 11:41:10am il y a 3.3 années

Offline hellrazor
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Quote: Pie-kun
Actually, I'd say the biggest problem with the homeless is mental illness. A few decades ago, many mental institutions were closed down in order to save money and they purged a lot of the less-extreme patients out onto the streets, which is why you see so many crazy homeless people. When you live as close to downtown LA as I do, you see tons of them.
Those are my fondest memories of Hollywood all the crazy homeless people. I grew up in Bellflower, CA, but I actually enjoyed talking to the crazy homeless people, they sure had some fun stories and didn't care what you talked about as long as it was crazy, especially conspiracy theories.

Post #25 · Posté à 2011-08-17 12:09:57pm il y a 3.3 années

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I thought of a better analogy that I think paints all players in this mess appropriately.

A man is walking down an isolated street in his town at twilight. It is a somewhat secluded area and there is no one else in sight save for a mother and her child walking across the street. Suddenly, a masked man jumps out of the shadows in front of the woman and her child and points a gun at them: it is a mugging. In fact, this mugger has been terrorizing this otherwise peaceful town for months and he has proven to be elusive to the authorities.

The man on the other side of the street has a cell phone and a gun (let's hope legally obtained...) in his pocket. He can try calling the police, but he knows that the mugger will likely have escaped by the time police arrive. And though the police can attempt to get information from the victims, it will likely be unable to help catch the mugger and it will offer no comfort to the traumatized woman and child.

On the other hand, he can take out his gun and attempt to confront the mugger. If he is able to successfully intimidate the mugger and make him drop his weapon (or shoot him, if it gets down to it), he will offer substantial relief to the town, bring a criminal to justice, and become a hero. But there's also the chance the mugger will not stand down (after all, he may face a very long jail sentence if caught) and could attempt to take the woman and child hostage or worse. The man would face the ire of many citizens of the town for acting so rashly, no matter the good intentions of the act.

So, what is the man to do?

I think this more appropriately lays out the kind of situation we're facing here.

Post #26 · Posté à 2011-08-17 07:11:40pm il y a 3.3 années

Offline Aegis
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"|| -You're all silly- ||"
Do remember that people like you who have the mindset to not care at all and not give are cruel. (That is to say, if you have the chance.) As Aaron stated once, don't give what you can't afford to give away. True, but can't a little bit go a long way? Yes, it isn't ending the problem immediately, but it certainly is helping out, right? Truth be told, if everyone had the mindset to help out a little, then the fire would be no match to our number of pales with water.

So your mindset is cruel and unjust.

Remember, age is of no matter. Yes, you cannot make much difference, but every little difference counts.

Post #27 · Posté à 2011-08-18 02:01:10am il y a 3.3 années

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Quote: Aegis
Do remember that people like you who have the mindset to not care at all and not give are cruel. (That is to say, if you have the chance.) As Aaron stated once, don't give what you can't afford to give away. True, but can't a little bit go a long way? Yes, it isn't ending the problem immediately, but it certainly is helping out, right? Truth be told, if everyone had the mindset to help out a little, then the fire would be no match to our number of pales with water.

So your mindset is cruel and unjust.

Remember, age is of no matter. Yes, you cannot make much difference, but every little difference counts.

Have you even been reading this thread?

No, a little cannot go a long way when government leaders are known to steal the aid we give to their hungry and sell it for profit in markets. Here's a great report done by 20/20 on the matter.

Quote
Even food aid gets stolen. When "20/20" went to Kenya a few weeks ago, Kenyan farmers said bags of food aid from their government never arrived.

"You find most of it is getting lost on the way," farmer Joseph Nthome said. Lost, but then found ... for sale in street markets.

We could send trillions of dollars and only a fraction of it would translate to any help for any hungry people and the solution would be painfully temporary.

If you really want to get serious about this problem, you need to talk about toppling governments. Throwing money at the problem does nothing for it except make us feel better about ourselves and project moral superiority over others.

Post #28 · Posté à 2011-08-18 02:44:52am il y a 3.3 années

Offline Kiri_No_Haku
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After reading this, all I get from the "philosophical topic" was that the scuba diver can't help the suffocating children if their submarine was already ill-equipped in the first place. The blame lays in the submarine manufacturer and the children's inability to take up for themselves before they submerged.

Stop blaming countries that have a much greater standard of living than the others because they won't give out freebies. They worked for it and they deserve it, so they can spend their wealth on however they please.

And whoever automatically stereotyped the scuba diver as being a "self-indulgent American" should right now quit their job, sell all of their possessions, and buy a ticket to Ethiopia to help the cause. If that person cannot, then stop complaining.

Just another quixotic topic made to guilt trip people.
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Post #29 · Posté à 2011-08-18 08:34:29am il y a 3.3 années

Offline -Viper- Chatting
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Quote: Pie-Kun
We could send trillions of dollars and only a fraction of it would translate to any help for any hungry people and the solution would be painfully temporary.

If you really want to get serious about this problem, you need to talk about toppling governments. Throwing money at the problem does nothing for it except make us feel better about ourselves and project moral superiority over others.

If what you're saying is true, then there should be almost no observable cases of people in poor countries successfully having their suffering alleviated from the works of charity worker/missionaries/relief workers/etc. Are you saying this is the case? If so I think thats a pretty radical claim that many would disagree with.

Quote: Kiri_No_Haku
After reading this, all I get from the "philosophical topic" was that the scuba diver can't help the suffocating children if their submarine was already ill-equipped in the first place. The blame lays in the submarine manufacturer and the children's inability to take up for themselves before they submerged.

So the fact that the sub may or may not have been ill equipped would remove all responsibility from the diver in this situation and he would be excused for letting them drown? Thats a rather interesting sense of justice to say the least...

Quote: Kiri_No_Haku
Just another quixotic topic made to guilt trip people.

Judging by how defensive some of you are getting, apparently it worked, even though it isn't supposed to be a guilt trip. Have some objectivity people.

Post #30 · Posté à 2011-08-18 09:59:09am il y a 3.3 années

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Quote
If what you're saying is true, then there should be almost no observable cases of people in poor countries successfully having their suffering alleviated from the works of charity worker/missionaries/relief workers/etc. Are you saying this is the case? If so I think thats a pretty radical claim that many would disagree with.

I never said that 100% of the money goes to waste, but it is undeniable that a significant amount of it does and, as I've said numerous times, you are not alleviating their suffering if you're only offering a temporary solution to a problem that will continue under the current circumstances.

It would be nice if the problem could be solved by just throwing money at it, but unfortunately, it's not.

Post #31 · Posté à 2011-08-18 11:34:06am il y a 3.3 années

Offline Kiri_No_Haku
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Quote: -Viper-

So the fact that the sub may or may not have been ill equipped would remove all responsibility from the diver in this situation and he would be excused for letting them drown? Thats a rather interesting sense of justice to say the least...


I never said that they deserved it. I just noted that it is a fact that it isn't the diver's obligation to save the children, but rather his ethics that would drive to do such. Also, these children in retrospect are waiting for the ship above to send canisters down to them to allow them to live. In an allegorical sense, the ship above is the temporary aid that can only do so much until their canisters/methods come to an end while the children need to utilize their submarine, or let's say government, to return to the surface. It is their own faults for staying idle and letting themselves reach the situation in the first place. The scuba diver is just a bystander who is trying to stay out of the children's affairs. He will only weaken himself in the end. Life is just like that.
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Post #32 · Posté à 2011-08-18 06:52:31pm il y a 3.3 années

Offline Aegis
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Quote: Pie-kun
Quote
If what you're saying is true, then there should be almost no observable cases of people in poor countries successfully having their suffering alleviated from the works of charity worker/missionaries/relief workers/etc. Are you saying this is the case? If so I think thats a pretty radical claim that many would disagree with.

I never said that 100% of the money goes to waste, but it is undeniable that a significant amount of it does and, as I've said numerous times, you are not alleviating their suffering if you're only offering a temporary solution to a problem that will continue under the current circumstances.

It would be nice if the problem could be solved by just throwing money at it, but unfortunately, it's not.

So a temporary solution is not better than letting them do about their famine and such.

Post #33 · Posté à 2011-08-18 07:43:51pm il y a 3.3 années

Offline Kiri_No_Haku
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It is not better if you are only wasting your time and resources for something that will just deteriorate back the second you stop giving aid to it. It is an unwise investment.

Now if the children devised a machine that would convert CO2 to O2, the scuba diver would be all for lending a few tanks because the children would be able to repay him by allowing use of a such a machine in the future.
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Post #34 · Posté à 2011-08-18 11:31:01pm il y a 3.3 années

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I would disagree that temporary investments are pointless. Just about everything we do has a short term benefit rather than a long one. You may as well say "Why on EARTH would you get a car wash when you know the car is just going to get dirty again in a month? It's MADNESS!".

It is clearly out of the childrens ability to make a machine that converts CO2 to O2 so it would be silly for the diver to expect that, similarly it would be foolish for people to expect significant paypack from the subject of the volunteer work when donating/doing volunteer work. But not EVERYTHING needs to be done for profit. Maybe some things should be done simply because they're the right thing to do.

I hate the Ayn Rand philosophy that pure selfishness is a virtue and altruism is impossible, which conservative economics is largely based on. It often makes me want to say "maybe it's not human nature like you claim, maybe you're just an asshole". It's a self fulfilling prophesy because people who otherwise would've been willing to show compassion without reward are no longer are able to.

Post #35 · Posté à 2011-08-19 04:10:28am il y a 3.3 années

Offline Ryuzaki573
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Quote: -Viper-
I hate the Ayn Rand philosophy that pure selfishness is a virtue and altruism is impossible, which conservative economics is largely based on. It often makes me want to say "maybe it's not human nature like you claim, maybe you're just an asshole". It's a self fulfilling prophesy because people who otherwise would've been willing to show compassion without reward are no longer are able to.

I don't think selfishness is a virtue per se, but it is a part of human nature that people can't be blamed for. Selfish people aren't "assholes," they're just people who've chosen to stand by rather than act. Do you see the scuba diver hurting the kids? Someone who stands by isn't an asshole, just a factor in the equation that doesn't really matter. An asshole would be someone who disconnects the tubes from the submarine. In the real world, the assholes are the people who take the donated things away, like the people who stole the food.

In a crime scene like Pie's, there are victims, bystanders, and suspects. The bystanders of these crime scenes are never deemed as criminal because they didn't do anything; they stayed neutral. Why should the diver be called a murderer if he did the exact same thing? Because he had the ability to help? Think of all the people in crime scenes that have the ability to help but choose not to. Is it because of the potential danger they could be putting themselves in? When a person donates, aren't they putting themselves in financial danger? If a person is willing to risk their own well-being for the well-being of another, then great, that's their choice. But it isn't criminal if someone else thinks otherwise. It just depends on what you believe as a person. But! People shouldn't try to influence others to donate. If you don't like the fact someone isn't donating, just deal with it. Don't try to change them because frankly, it's pretty annoying.

Post #36 · Posté à 2011-08-20 08:59:18pm il y a 3.3 années

Offline hellrazor
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Quote: -Viper-
I would disagree that temporary investments are pointless. Just about everything we do has a short term benefit rather than a long one. You may as well say "Why on EARTH would you get a car wash when you know the car is just going to get dirty again in a month? It's MADNESS!".
What you are ignoring is that corrupt government is the problem. If you give $1 worth of food and the government steals 80% your justification is that at least $0.20 goes to a good cause, what you ignore is that the person stealing the $0.80 now has a desire to steal $ because it worked, so they get their friends involved and become more corrupt. So in the future your $1 dwindles to $0.10, and so on.

Kinda like dealing with Somali pirates, give them hostage $ to release a ship and you'll increase the pirate problem and cause more Somali pirates hijacking ships. Deal with the root of the problem and you'll have less pirates, while one solves a temporary problem it causes worse problems in the future, the other ignores the temporary problem (heartless yes) but decreases the long-term problem.

As if a carwash today brings more kids with eggs who hate that you car was washed, so next month it's worse, then more kids see it's clean and even more throw eggs and so on down the spiral. But ignoring the dirty car means less kids care, less eggs (or whatever since we like silly analogies) and less of a need for car washing in the future.

Post #37 · Posté à 2011-08-21 04:43:15am il y a 3.3 années

Offline Aegis
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At least the car gets clean for some time, right?

Post #38 · Posté à 2011-08-21 07:00:29am il y a 3.3 années

Offline hellrazor
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Quote: Aegis
At least the car gets clean for some time, right?
Yeah, but your dealing with the symptom rather than the actual problem. Remove all dirt from the world and kill all the kids and the problem is gone j/k. Do I get an award for being the lowest rated member who isn't banned?

Post #39 · Posté à 2011-08-21 07:02:24am il y a 3.3 années

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