What do you mean when you say

Hey, if you've got some step artists like that, I'd love to know who they are. None of the videos I've seen have them except maybe WinDEU.

http://r21freak.com/phpbb3/viewforum.php?f=30&start=0
Though, if you consider Conga SX and Canned Heat SX too straightforward and predictable, you'll have to turn on Shuffle to get the charts to what you like.
(joking about using Shuffle)

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They're not bad charts, and they've definitely got a lot of rhythmical variation, but what gets me is that 99% of the time, if I stepped with the right foot, the next step is the left foot, and so on. And I mean, some charts on DDR do that quite well too --- say, Rhythm and Police. But when every single song on a mix does it, it gets about as old as back in 4th mix when 90% of the time the songs had you facing 45º to the left except for a very occasional turn.

Okay, so turn on Shuffle Turn on Super Shuffle. It honestly sounds like that's what you want.

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Heh, and you're talking about me using straw men? I'll have to get into specifics.

Take a look at the Single Heavy chart for A Stupid Barber.

http://zenius-i-vanisher.com/v5.2/simfiles_getstepchart.php?simfileid=1217&difficulty=expert&style=dance-single

I count "double-steps" in measures 5, 8/9 (depending where you switch), 13, 16/17 (again depending), 29, 32, 33, 36, and 53. I especially love the ones at 29 and 33, where for example you have the step pattern RURDURL, which you can easily step RLRLR->RL. It feels natural --- and fun --- to slide back from the up arrow to the down arrow.

So it's not like the entire chart was thrown through a blender --- there's just a little variation here and there to keep things interesting.

Okay, so you want to do those that way. But is that the way the step artist intended you to move? I don't see any place where I can read their comments on what they had in mind when making the chart. Given that the same charts that seem to have had more effort put into following and enhancing the music also have fewer doublesteps, it seems likely to me that those doublesteps are the result of not enough time to remove them. It's not clear which of us is right.
The step artists I like use techniques such as holds and mines to make it clear that they intend for you to move your foot that way.

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I think it's kind of a fallacy to assume that just because a chart is a Beatmania chart it has more "effort" put into it. When I do steps, I put just as much effort into making the charts that closely follow the rhythm as I do into charts that are just supposed to be . . . fun. And my doublesteps are always deliberately placed, not just the result of carelessness. Not only that, but in many situations I prefer to let the player choose how they want to tackle a set of steps --- sometimes there's a particular way that makes it easy, sometimes it's up to them --- but I don't particularly like telegraphing it.

P.S. The mirrored repetition of the doublestep patterns in the A Stupid Barber chart further suggest they were intentional, not careless.

The mirrored reuse doesn't necessarily mean they intended that section that way. For all we know, the artist ran into a deadline, and decided that to copy+mirror the section because they didn't have time to do something else.
Maybe they thought copy+mirror was a good thing to do.

The copy+mirror technique doesn't actually suggest either thing, it merely exists. It can be used to support either side, depending on your bias.

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Do you at least see the point I'm trying to make though? I mean yes, the artist COULD have had a deadline he was going to fill, but do you at least concede that the mere existence of doublesteps doesn't necessarily imply carelessness, and that my preference doesn't just boil down to "just turn on Shuffle"?

I'm on the side the DMAshura here. My idea of a fun chart extends beyond how close the chart follows the rhythm. But then, it all depends on what you look for in the game. I know Kyztenun likes chart that can be sightread. I, however, like to be tripped up on a chart, look at it and decide how I will tackle a certain section. If that means memorizing a section then so be it, it's how I get the most value out of my game. Konami's idea of make the charts is that sure, the game isn't "real dancing" but they do make charts that look like some form of choreography. They try to hold on the the "Dance" aspect of the title of their game. No offense to ITG, but there's hardly any "Groove" to the game, it's more or less "intense rhythm game for your feet".

The reason I tend towards the more negative view is that the things I point out are also things that I see people that I know have only made a few simfiles and have only played the game for a short time do. I have not seen any unambiguous message in a DDR game showing that their step artists have played the game for multiple years and made dozens of files each. I haven't seen anything to suggest that they have plenty of time to polish a simfile and make it into everything they want it to be.

What I have seen is charts that fit with the notion of relatively inexperienced step artists who might be short on time to spend polishing charts.
Since you're a known person with a record of having played the game for years and made many charts, and taken the time to polish them to be what you want, I don't view your charts as negatively. I don't know such things about the Konami step artists.

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No, it's Stepmania.

The problem is you don't see the step artist's intentions, which can lead you in an awkward position if you would rather do the crossovers. Double-stepping is perfectly fine as long as it's guided with freeze arrows or doesn't put you in a weird spot for the next pattern. Konami does not know how to do this properly. ITG fails at it too.

It's about the community. We know it's stepmania. We don't care. If it's something stepped by the ITG community, I consider it part of ITG.

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I still maintain that it should be up to the player to determine the best way to step various parts, and not up to the game to telegraph it to them.

I used to be pretty dogmatic about double stepping being a sign of a terrible chart. Now though I find that they can be fun if used correctly, like Mars War 3 and Mobo Moga. If used correctly they be pretty fun to do. One thing I like about some of DDR's recent charts is they use double steps correctly and it makes the charts unique and different from the charts we've been playing for so long. Meanwhile when you play an r21freak simfile, it usually feels just pretty much like every other simfile on the site, so even if thats the kind of chart that you consider to be good, theres not much diversity.


That's just your opinion though. The staff that made up ITG itself only made the offical songs. Songs made by the community are just that. Fan charts. Thus not official. It's kind of a double standard to point out how terrible Konami is at making charts only to lump in fan made charts with ITG to prove that it's somehow better. Most people though are looking at just the official content of the games so fan made charts don't add much to ITGs quality.

When I speak of ITG, I speak of the arcade games, being ITG1 and 2.

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