Is "artificial" difficulty a good or bad thing? (continued from DDRX2 AC thread)

you guys know what we were talking about and where we left off before al got involved, so lets keep going. i say its good every once in a while, but every boss song doesnt need it. i prefer a hard song be hard because its hard, not because it stops 47 times and isnt hard when you arent playing EES.

share your thoughts. ready, go!

edit - here's my last post from the other thread for those who missed it.

---

Ok, i post what i was about to say :


Quote the part where i said it looks good.
I gived "Exemple of songs who are hard with almost only speed" (i said that).
I didn't said it was ugly/bad/good/awesome.

Also, did i said all the ITG charts were good ? Hell no ! I hate Tell and some other songs too. Some people may love it, some people not.

At least they tried a lot of conceptual charts like Bend You Mind or Sweet World (for exemple. ). It's one of the kind of stuff that i like.
But still, imo ITG has some solid 14'/18' X-Scale. From Tribal Style to Energizer with some Soapy Bubble in the place...

Sure, DDR has some kick ass stuff too. But not so many 14'/14'+ unfortunatly.


THEY BETTER TELL ME THAT !
Because there is a shit load of song that i didn't played yet :s
Why ? Because Europe can burn in hell (last decent cab was SN1. No Extreme here, no SN2 and X was kinda broken).

So if we have to wait to play the songs before talking about it... 95% of the people here must better not say anything ?


I'm gonna quote myself again from 2 different posts (added red color on 888 and fixed one "bpm" typo) :
Maybe you didn't saw it. But that's not a big deal.


Also yeah n00b_saib0t, PSMO is still a solid thing. I still call it "The harder song on Extreme".
I don't call it this way songs on SN1/SN2...

---

soapy bubble is, IMO, a terrible chart. note placement could have been much better there. i agree that tribal style and energizer are awesome charts though, very fun to play, although i would say its maybe a 17 instead of an 18. its up there, but without the PHO and PRO crossover runs its still just running in place like 888. sweet world... same thing i said about FELMO, at least they TRIED lol

so yeah, not all songs that try to be "legitimately" hard end up good, but that doesnt mean that an "artificially" hard chart is any better. like i said, if PRO was 100 BPM like the song itself actually is, with the exact same step patterns and foot speed required (the ending would be 32nds at 100 BPM instead of 8ths at 400) it would still be one of the most monstrous charts we have ever seen in DDR, and the chart would be good (the chart is good now, the gimmick is just stupid).

---

To me, it is acceptable for them to pull this kind of stuff on EXTRA STAGE and ENCORE EXTRA STAGE songs. It's one of the more intriguing ways of prolonging the experience. Valkyrie dimension's freeze-stop part would infuriate me if it wasn't the ENCORE EXTRA STAGE; but as it is, I accept it's intended to be a combo challenge and yeah, that's an interesting way to do it. Gimmicks make the boss songs feels like boss songs; this is probably just the boss song 'culture' that DDR has created by having virtually every boss song be gimmicky, but I feel people would find it more acceptable if we had more songs rated 15-17 that were just basic unlocks or default songs that don't employ any gimmicks. I think some players just don't like that, to play a 17, they're pretty much restricted to boss songs with gimmicks.

KONAMI's done a great job recently of closing the difficulty gap between the hardest songs and the rest; now they should put in some really hard songs that aren't meant to be combo challenging boss songs, but are just regular songs.

---

hahahah what have I done?

I'm probably not gonna debate tooooo much, but here's what I think.

Valkyrie Dimension is a good chart. As far as boss charts go, it's not too hard at all (though there could be some 16th streams we don't know about before the 370 BPM part). I dislike the fact that it speeds up. Why? Because it's not what I would have done. If you like the speedup for whatever reason, awesome. Play it, enjoy it, AAA it. I also dislike the crossovers at the end because it's so much different than the rest of the chart, which is generally straightforward, and crossovers aren't really necessary. As long as the patterns don't turn into HDVO, I am sure I can pass it without too much trouble.

888 is also a good chart. I don't like the drill-quintuplets (patterns at this speed are much easier to do and time with [a little bit] more movement. It sounds weird, but it's true.) but it was really the first hard chart that konami did "right". I don't like the speedup in that one either, but the patterns at the end are easier than VD and are easy to memorize.

With all of that being said, I love love love the double BPM in Roppongi evolved D. I have no idea why, so don't ask. It all depends on the song. (though RE is a lot easier than 888/VD)



Summer Speedy Mix is actually one of my favorite officials on ITG. Really, the only artificial difficulty in that chart is the last stream since it doesn't really go to anything. Think about it, there's a stamina 13 (Pandy), a stream 13 (Summer), and a lolwtf 13 (VerTex^2). I wouldn't call any of these 19s on DDR though. 888 is harder than summer and VerTex^2 (maybe Pandy too) VerTex^2 isn't that bad. People just suck at it. It's just 16th note patterns at 175 BPM.... wait, there's a speedup at the end that forces people to read it on 1x (or like 2x hallway mini). Sound familiar? :3

Valkyrie Dimension = VerTex^2

Just kidding, but the low speed mod IS what makes V^2 so hard if you can make it past the bass rush. If the song was a solid 140 BPM at the beginning and 175 BPM at the end (no other speedups/slowdowns) would it still be as hard?

For those of you who think 19s and 20s have to be just stupid, you do not play ITG. I'm not talking about official ITG charts. There are 14 block charts and 15 block charts that some people actually find fun. I'd call 888 a low 13 on ITG. Generally, a 14 would be something with extended streams at 200 BPM, short bursts at 220-230 BPM, or a 5 minute 12/13. Ok that does sound stupid, but it's really not that bad.

Here's a 14 on ITG (Stepped by WinDEU) That I think would be a good 19 on DDR (even if it was cut to 2 minutes). It has 32nd note drills at 130 BPM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNc6rJeXHnQ&feature=related
no artificial difficulty, lolwut

I'm not gonna go into the 15+ debate, because that even causes drama in the ITG community.

TL;DR It is VERY possible to have a 19/20 in DDR without it being a crossover stream at 450 BPM. Whether or not Konami makes it stupid hard is up to them, but it doesn't have to be THAT hard.

---

NIQ9 - 8-bit trip is such a sweet chart, and its exactly the kind of thing i was referring to. nothing artificial or inflated about it, just pure difficulty. and you make a good point about VD being similar to vertex^2, but really who ACTUALLY likes that chart? vertex^2 is also like max.(period), and how many people who have actually played it other than on stepmania actually like that chart (i've found most people who have imported extreme found the song to be rather bleh while those who have only seen a video or played it on SM think its the greatest thing to happen to DDR since naoki).

of course the big difference is that vertex^2 is actually a hard chart. even with a c-mod and no mines, its not exactly a walk in the park. even playing max.(period) without a c-mod, its not that bad difficulty wise, the ending is very straight foreword, and the oni chart is actually enjoyable despite the stupid gimmick similarly to HDVH (which sucks because maxdot makes my ears bleed).

arctic - this is why i'm torn on whether or not i like the new ES/EES system with multiple songs. like i said, one isnt a bad thing. even in extreme with 6 red boss songs, DDR, TMS, PS, PSM, and LOM didnt require you to memorize stupid BPM changes, just max.(period) and thats only on the home version. like i said, BPM doubling is fine as long as its constant. i dont like it, but i can live with it, i just use x1.5 instead of x3 or x4. but this mindset that a DDR boss song should have a gimmick is making it so that there are very few "regular" 15s and 16s, and no regular 17s or 18s.

i mean, we have kimono princess, super samurai, horatio and on the bounce for non-gimmick 15s and 16s. la recta fills in VERY nicely as a non-gimmick 14, as would several other charts if they port them to the arcade (where the hell are mad blast and g2 dammit!?). i wouldnt complain as much if we had more of these, but the absence of non-gimmick hard songs shafts the guys who dont like gimmicks. and its not that i dont have PR and PH etc gimmicks memorized... i just dont like it. just give me notes, let me stomp.

i like certain gimmick charts, dont get me wrong. i would have written X off as a loss if we didnt get saber wing and the head shot remix out of it. head shot oni is dumb, but holy crap is expert awesome. saber wing just rocks, the stops and slow down actually FIT, and even if oni is a shock arrow chart it was implemented well in this case (so was horatio JP oni IMO). gimmicks can be good and they can work, konami is just going overboard with how many songs they do it with, every hard song doesnt need a gimmick.

---

Truth.

I see DDR as a game. It is. Like in most games, the bosses are supposed to be harder and "cheat". You have to work to get to them. DDR is different from other games as the boss songs of past get demoted and you're left with a gimmicky chart of awkwardness. I'd also like it if they remedied this with non-gimmicky 15-16's.

I don't recall saying that I think artificial difficulty was good. I just said I'm all for it if it keeps DDR away from 1000 steps per sq. chart/2min. I believe that gimmicks suck less than 1000notestompy.chart. Lesser evil, etc.


We were debating if 19/20 can be hard without being terribly stepped. I assumed you thought they were good. I apologize. In any case, all of this comes down to opinion. Whether it's popular or personal opinion, it's just an opinion. Like this one:

I think VD is fucking awesome and DDR X2 > all 4 panel games.

PS: We agree then. PSMO is bawss.

Also: I just wanted to make a wall o'text. I didn't ask to be part of this debate. I saw that people were making them and I thought it was... cool. >.>

---

actually, if you look at most fighting games, when a boss becomes playable they are a neutered version of themselves. lets use SSF4 as an example.

seth
boss version - 1100 health, hits like a truck, deals stun retarded quick, fastest character in the game with great mix ups
player version - 750 health, hits like an infant, deals stun very quick, fastest character in the game with great mix ups

all seth kept was his mix up game, he has the least health (average is 1000) and deals less damage than about 70% of the cast. the flip side is that seth controls screen space and has a wicked mix up game. he's a glass cannon.

akuma
boss version - 1100 health, hits like a truck, deals stun like no other, "free" EX air fireballs (no meter required), has links player akuma doesnt
player version - 850 health, hits like a truck, deals less than average stun (so nerfed from SF4 player akuma), double air fireball requires meter, has limited links

akuma is less extreme than seth, but he is still noticeably weaker than the boss version. player akuma has less health, and all but one of the perks of boss akuma, but boss akuma wasnt as good as boss seth.

gouken
boss version 1100 health, hits like a truck, stuns you like its his freaking job, stuns you like its his freaking job, hits like a truck
player gouken - 1000 health, just awful.

holy crap did he get shafted.

but this is a trend for fighters. konami clearly cant just say "well PR isnt a boss song now so no more BPM gimmick", it wouldnt make sense IMO.

---

I have never passed 888 (low 13?, I can pass most 13's). That song is just hard. As for the FIRST hard song Konami did right, have you seen PARANOiA? When DDR first came out that song was considered impossible to pass. Then came Max 300 on 6th mix and again the song was considered impossible to pass.

The ITG 13's must be top tier, since I can't find videos of hardly anyone passing them without bracket raping the pads, I can pass Vertex^2 and Pandy, but I haven't passed Summer Speedy Mix, and I REFUSE to bracket rape since that takes the true challenge away from the chart, you pretty much make DDR a 2 panel game when you bracket (I can also pass MANY unofficial 13's). 14's and 15's are even more pointless because hardly nobody can pass 13's by playing normally (bar is okay), I haven't seen a single person pass a 14 or 14+ song without bracket raping. I find 14's and 15's to be gimmicky since they are designed for bracket play (quad's that are impossible to hit with hands because you can't bend fast enough they are in the middle of streams, etc).

The video you posted is fairly easy a 130BPM 32nd drill = 1040 steps per minute, there are official DDR songs that go FASTER than this, I wouldn't consider that chart to be a 14 by any standard because the steps are dummied down. Would you consider my "Achilles" simfile with extended 1/16th streams at ~200BPM a 14? I've gotten VERY close to passing it without double-stepping / bracket raping, so I thought it was just a medium 13 footer, it's also VERY LONG and stamina draining if you play without cheating, draining energy before the fast streams (lots of movement) is why I gave it a 13.
http://zenius-i-vanisher.com/v5.2/download.php?type=ddrsimfilecustom&simfileid=5760

Would you think my Sting of the Bumblebee is a 13 since it has streams of 1/16ths at ~210+BPM, I considered it to be a 12 because it's not very long (just over 2 minutes with a long break) and the streams are just drills (two arrows patterns).
http://zenius-i-vanisher.com/v5.2/download.php?type=ddrsimfile&simfileid=5802

Would you concede that difficulty cannot be set by speed/stream alone? A hell run (lots of movement between arrows like PSMO) is tougher than a speed drill (same two arrows [or very few movement]), right? And people who bracket basically make everything a speed drill since they don't move much, thus they turn 13's to 11's and 14-15's to 12-13's.

Personally I wouldn't make anything tougher than a 13 ever, cheating shouldn't be the norm. If the steps are tough enough to be a 14 just change some of the hell runs into speed drills (since people will cheat them anyways to pass), and dummy the steps down to a 13, don't design a chart to be played by bracket raping.

Having said that I can't imagine what a 19/20 will be, I still haven't passed 888.

---

NO. do NOT come in here starting that shit. this isnt a "right way to play DDR" thread so take your opinion about bracketing elsewhere.

---

It's a fair argument. Bracketing can be a form of artificial difficulty too. I could explain this, but here's a video of Future Destination from Loaded Futurepack. The main challenge is the foot switches and bracketing and the 16th streams are kinda secondary (though the runs are still really hard Dx)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcIZayADYmc&feature=related

Bracket stomps have been gaining popularity lately. I do agree that bracketing most songs is cheating, but some charts are DESIGNED to be bracketed now.

Either way, we will never see that in DDR anyway, so I won't waste anymore time on debating that.

I just realized I contradicted myself in my last post. I said 888 was a low 13, yet I said it was harder than the official 13s. Yeah, it's definitely NOT a low 13. I don't care what you say though, 888 is definitely easier than ReaF.

Also, PTF is nothing but artificial difficulty (even if some of it [the incorrect stop value] is the result of a careless mistake)
~ 50-440 BPM
~ 8ths at 440 that go to nothing
~ 32nds at 50 that go to nothing
~ random stops that sometimes go with the music and aren't used at the next similar part. (like Trigger, kinda)

If they wanted to make it hard, they should have stepped the ~10 measure 16th stream at the 200 BPM part.

or something

---

But there is a "right way to play DDR". A good stepchart will be written so that your body turns to hit arrows without using the same foot twice, especially important on doubles. Unfortunately many of the latest stepcharts are being poorly made, bad spins forced by poor arrow placement. As stated above many of the tougher charts are actually designed for bracket play...
You have 4 arrows, use them. Hands are called hands because your supposed to hit them with your HANDS. I'm a big guy at 6'7" and I have huge feet (size 16 US) and I build my own metal dance pads, so I could easily become a bracketer if I wanted to, but I refuse to play this way because it kills the challenge, I would rather step in the middle of the arrows and fail with great effort than stand still and wobble my feet, but I play for the workout and not to pass stupid-retarted hard files.

ReaF on the other hand was actually designed for normal play, and wow is that ever hard... I can make it about 30% into the song and that's it, I have never seen anyone pass it without bracket-raping which is why my conclusion is that nothing harder than a 13 should exist in 4-arrow machine dance games, because they cannot physically be accomplished without cheating the chart (like having two people play on one pad). If your only goal is to get a great score then rip out the dance pads, connect your keyboard, and play the game with the 2 hand "spread" technique that so many use to play songs designed to be played by keyboard.

Again that proves my point, some songs are designed to be played by keyboard, they aren't good stepcharts for pad. Some songs are designed to be played by bracketing (my statement is that anything over a 13 is such a chart since they can't be beaten any other way, and making a chart that is for bracket play is artificially difficult, because the difficulty is based on normal play mode), and some songs are designed to be played by normal step on the middle of the arrow play (hopefully everything in DDR).

---

if bracketing was cheating, everyone would be able to do it and it would make everything easier. my little size 9 feet dont let it happen. also, the street fighter argument. its "supposed to be played on an arcade stick". does that mean you cant use a dualshock 3? not at all. this video is the best example i can think of showing the "right way to play street fighter", especially since this just ISNT possible on a controller.

but that doesnt mean there is any one person who can dictate the "right way to play" considering they sell pads designed for this game even if this stuff isnt possible on one.

i dont see bracketing as any different than using 1 finger to hit 2 notes in IIDX. also, i've watched 14s be passed without bracketing, it just takes godly stamina and the chart has to be designed with pad play in mind. something with hands mid 16th stream is a keyboard file, not a pad file. there is a HUGE difference between a stamina draining pad 14 and a keyboard file. just because both have 4 notes to hit doesnt mean they're the same. stepmania evolved into being its own game years ago, its a coincidence that said engine is used for ITG.

---

Summer Speedy is a way better file than 8bitshit.

^Preference > Thread.

what? try forming a complete thought, then putting it into text for the rest of us to read. obviously its about preference, but obviously you didnt read the entire thread either.

---

Your Street Fighter argument is a loose argument, they are two controllers both similarly limited. A better analogy would be playing Street Fighter with a controller that had all the moves programmed such that one button press actually triggered a series of buttons, this would be cheating since the game isn't meant to be played by just pressing buttons to pull of combos and super-moves.

IIDX is played on fingers, while I agree one finger for 2 notes is cheap, I bet some songs were designed to be played that way, but it's still a loose comparison.

Bracketing = gimmick that makes the chart artificially tougher (because the difficulty scale is based on normal play). Your little size 9's could bracket, but you would just need to build your own pad and change the dimensions, or remove the bracket entirely. Anyone could do it.

Someone please show me a video of a pad pass on a 14+ without double-stepping or cheating hands. I've never seen it which is why I believe it's physically impassible to do, which is why Konami should never go there IMHO (don't force cheating by making a chart that is impassible).

Would anyone consider DeltaMax gimmicky? There is no artificial BPM changes or pauses, the entire song is beat-accurate, but the song itself is gimmicky, opinion?

---

actually, there is NO limitation on what an arcade stick can do, so they arent "similarly limited". the only reason someone would take a pad over an arcade stick is because they find the d-pad easier to perform moves on than the stick. on the other hand, if you can execute the moves on an arcade stick then no combination is impossible. there is a reason the arcade versions dont have Px3 and Kx3 buttons but home versions include them for the pad players (change the settings from controller to arcade stick and those buttons are disabled by default). but since you bring up cheating with a button designed to press more than one button, i guess you think capcom must have been wrong to give pad players a reliable way to do ultra combos since hitting 3 buttons at the exact same time on a controller is just retardedly hard. even then, macros and programmable pads arent the same thing as being able to wobble back and forth and hit multiple panels with one foot. one removes ANY execution and the skill required, the other is a technique to hit buttons.

now then, like i've been saying, there is no right way to play so if you're going to keep calling people cheaters and saying they are cheap, get the hell out of my thread because you arent contributing to the discussion at all.this isnt about your opinion on the bar/mods/bracketing/double stepping/etc. this isnt about keyboard stepmania files designed to be played spread style on a keyboard. this is about charts in DDR, and whether or not a BPM change not being in the song but still being used is artificially inflating the difficulty. take your elitist bull shit elsewhere if you dont want to talk about that. thanks.

oh, and while i'm not one of them, plenty of people here in AZ can pass pad 14s without bracketing. i know guys who can pass dokudenpa and one winged angel, for example. stop looking for keyboard files being passed and look for the pad ones, you'll actually find stuff.

---

14' doesn't need to be bracketed if you have speed, stamina and a good flat foot. Many players (ahah NOT ME) can clear a 14' without bracketing.
But maybe for you bracketing = flat foot. If this is, you're weird ^^'

Also, Zetorux didn't cheated hands on this (even it's designed to be bracketed) :

I love this guy (watch at 1:00 until the end for the clear).
And Kevbo isn't a bracket player btw. It was him playing 8bit trip on the video above (a 14).
This chart is good even it could being "weird" for some people. It was on a pack based on speed.
But anyway, the 32th makes sence because it's in the song.

Like NIQ9 said, bracketing has bracketing charts now (his exemple and the video above are from the same pack. A bracket file pack).

But yeah, bracketing is an other debate.


I can agree on some things that you said hellrazor, like this part :
Exceptions for same arrow on same feet in a row, stepguns or whatever people call that. I not fan of this one but it turns ok on itg (i got pad shit on ddr :s).
I'm not fan of double steps and spins at all... even more if it comes after a really good crossovers part.
Some people like spins or double steps, not me.
So many time friends and I fucked up a song because of this.
You are doing good, doing nice crossovers, then you do an other one and the 3 next arrows KILLS you. Yeah, the crossovers right before was a "fake" one (understand : if you do it, you're screwed).
And i agree even more on wht you said for the double part.


n00b_saib0t : Nay Soapy Bubble is epic sauce and pushed crossovers on a higher level (like Oasis). But those 2 charts, are way to hard for me.

Oh btw, i found an exemple of song with good 24th/32th (yeah i was talking about that kind of arrows in the debate) :

There are many other exemples but this one is pretty sweet and it's on a low 11 (no need to have a 16' for 24th/32th. No need to have a 11' either lol).
Anyway like i said, i'm missing this kind of arrows/charts in ddr.

Someone said something that i think too, so i will quote and REALLY agree on this because i think the exact same way :
You need a +5 for this because for me, this is one of the biggest problem in the ddr series.

If we had like 100 songs who are 15'/15'+ we won't take the gimmicks ones the same way.
They will be special and challenging with a different way.
We will be like "Whoa, the bpm change here, here there is 3 weird stops and here... whoa."
But for now it's more "Please, don't fuck up with the bpm or stops again... what are you going to do again Konami ? "
So if we have more hard songs ( charts of songs who should have one) we could choose the kind of difficulty that we want, gimmick or not gimmick ones.
This is not possible for now. Only if you spend hours in edit mode (like i did with itgpc -> PSX memory card + ddr PS1/PS2 game -> Extreme cab).

---

panstyle - you said what i was trying to say, but in a bit better way. yeah, 14+ pad files are about speed and stamina, not so much bracketing. this is what i meant when i said this isnt about songs designed to be played on a keyboard. there are different kinds of hard, a pad 14 is the kind you described while a keyboard 14 is the kind hellrazor is talking about.

as for soapy bubble, if you like it thats cool but its not my crossover chart of choice. oasis on the other hand is such a sweet chart, and very fun if you know one of the ways to do it. i prefer the "foot swapping" on the freezes, i know others who can spin it. either way i've found that most people who dislike the chart cant do either, and those who "get it" love it. its one of the few official ITG charts i like (i dislike most because they feel the same, especially the 9s), its so unique.

and yes, if we had more non-gimmick 15+ songs this topic wouldnt even be necessary. when we get our 4 or 5 songs per mix that use it, the intended novelty would be appreciated. instead, those like me see it and think "here we go again..." because we dont get many charts like horatio and on the bounce. like i said, some of them turned out awesome (saber wing and head shot remix) but most of them feel over done.

---

Flat footing is similar to bracket (using heel/toe albeit moving more than bracketers). Watch the video he double-steps everything because he can't turn his body fast enough to hit the arrows, or because the stepfile is so poorly made that it can't be done without double-stepping or flatfooting as you call it.

But cudos on him actually hitting the hands with hands, that was cool.

I have VERY FEW 14's in my collection of 8000 simfiles, two from ITG Rebirth, "The Legend of Trance", and one or two others. I do not keep files that only have one difficulty (pretty much every fan-made pack for ITG or Keyboard or whatever crap packs there are. If you play flat-foot style you won't ever enjoy "Spin Spin Sugar", and you remove the need of a step artist to place arrows in technically accurate paddable patterns. Any doofus could just throw arrows together, a good simfile artist will make the steps enjoyable to play no matter how difficult.

And I still don't think 8bit trip is a true 14, that seemed to easy.

---