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Difficulty in DDR - Revisited in 2016

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Post #1 · Posted at 2016-01-12 04:23:58am 8.2 years ago

Offline Braeden47
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569 Posts
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Reg. 2008-01-02

"X scale 20"

Last updated: 2016-01-12 04:24am
About 8 years ago, there was an official DDR site called DDR Online Community. There was a topic in the forum there about Difficulty in DDR. At the time, the newest game was SN2. Some people said there should be songs harder than ITG and others thought it was fine.

Here are a few questions about difficulty in DDR

1. How hard should the hardest songs be?

Currently, the hardest songs in the game are the Challenge 19s. There are some people who think there shouldn't be anything harder than a 15, and others who think there should be songs harder than VDO.

2. In recent DDRs, there has been a trend towards more Heavy 14's-16's and less heavy songs below 10. What do you think?

3. What do you think about the increased use of challenge charts?

Discuss anything else related to the difficulty in DDR also.


My Responses

1. How hard should the hardest songs be?

Songs should be possible to pass on a DDR pad. ITG has different pad construction and different scoring rules. Currently, the best players can AA the 19's. I think a 20 should be the highest point within the X scale.

2 and 3:

This is great for players in the 14-16 range. Challenge charts give players more options. You can always play Heavy if you don't care for the challenge charts.






Post #2 · Posted at 2016-01-12 04:32:12am 8.2 years ago

Offline Sigrev2
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1. VDChallenge/OTPChallenge should be as hard as it gets. I don't ever want to see shit get worse than this.
2. Doesn't bother me. If people want easier stuff, there's always the lower difficulties.
3. Doesn't bother me. I always enjoy an extra challenge.

Post #3 · Posted at 2016-01-12 04:45:08am 8.2 years ago

Offline GadgetJax
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757 Posts
United States
Reg. 2015-09-20

1. I'm not even good enough to play any higher than a 15, so it's hard for me to recommend a limit on difficulty. If DDR actually continues to release new songs, I'm sure they'll hit a 20 sooner or later and make a big deal out of it. Perhaps it'll be some kind of song in the MAX series...

2. I think it's great! The trouble with the old 10's is that there weren't many, and most of them were about 100BPM faster than 9's, so pretty much anybody who didn't drive themselves to the limit would have trouble passing them. On the other hand, being given so many 10's of vary challenge and speed is a nice touch that should really stick around for future releases (if we get any). Xepher is good for learning all sorts of patterns.

3. Once again, I love the Challenge chart system, especially for Boss songs. We get a really hard Heavy chart that fits the difficulty range of the old games, and a Challenge chart to match the current standard for difficulty. That way, I can enjoy sweet tracks like 'Magnetic' without passing out in the process.

Post #4 · Posted at 2016-01-12 04:54:20am 8.2 years ago

Offline Meseki
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Reg. 2008-07-08

1. There should definitely be at least close to 10 songs with 19s (probably more) before a 20 is considered. If it seems that more than a few people can play the 19s (even if they're getting Bs/Cs) and the best can AAA them (or get close), I see no problem with getting an occasional 20, as long as we don't get songs with obnoxious skips between difficulties, like 16 to 19 or 17 to 20.

2. I remember there being a lack of 14s and non-boss 15s before X2, so more of them is good. If there is no room for a harder chart though, it'd likely be better for some of those 14s-16s to be Challenge charts.
As for less easier Heavy charts, it's fine so long as there are still a reasonable amount of charts in that difficulty range; they don't have to be Heavy charts.

3. If there's room for it (while still fitting the song, of course), there should probably be a Challenge chart. Nothing is gained from not having a Challenge chart other than the chart maker's time and/or the ability to release a Challenge chart at a later time as a separate update.
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Post #5 · Posted at 2016-01-15 04:44:44am 8.2 years ago

Offline Braeden47
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Reg. 2008-01-02

"X scale 20"
Quote: AnonyWolf

2. Doesn't bother me. If people want easier stuff, there's always the lower difficulties.
3. Doesn't bother me. I always enjoy an extra challenge.


If Challenge is too hard, than play Heavy.

Post #6 · Posted at 2016-01-15 09:53:51pm 8.2 years ago

Offline PaperSak
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The hardest difficulty should be 19 until there is a 19 that is actually good. 17+ charts are already a little messy... which is a statement you can choose to ignore because I can't pass any of them anyway; this is going off of other people's groans. Preferably a variety of 19s, kinda like what Meseki was saying. IMO just because some players can play hard songs doesn't mean they need to make harder songs. Unless they are the majority...? Which I kinda doubt...? But I don't live in Japan? Question mark?

Maybe DDR charts need to tone down the out-of-the-box patterns/ speed changes in recent boss charts and go for something simple but hard. Like Legend of Max, Max 300, PSMO, Paranoia Respect... egh, I sound like one of those old school elitists. I guess the hardest song I can have an opinion on is POSSESSION Heavy and yes the slowdown is squishy, but the steps in said slowdown made enough sense and didn't hurt to read as much as Monkey Business. I'm still a little bothered I failed OTP Light with a normal lifebar just because I didn't research the chart well ahead of time to know there's a speed spike at the end.

So maybe more stamina charts rather than technique-oriented charts? I'll take that back if it means more Horatio, though. Just do Sumidagawa Karenka Heavy or AHeavy but like faster and I'd be a happy clam.

Difficulty trend... it doesn't seem hard to get to 14 with good practice. Like... a lot, maybe. The 15+ charts were daunting, but I think they've padded enough 15s that 16 has become the new peak, perhaps. Or maybe it was always 16... well, anyway I like that they're adding more 15s. DDR really doesn't seem ready for a 20, though.

Challenge charts range from cheesy shock arrows to "guess what Sakura is easier this way" to "why does VD Challenge exist this is so hard;" they make things interesting, so hooray.

Post #7 · Posted at 2016-01-15 11:10:12pm 8.2 years ago

Offline NicholasNRG
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"Just Play Along"

Last updated: 2016-01-15 11:11pm
For a while now I've been thinking that Challenge charts should be renamed to Alternative charts, because they aren't always necessarily harder, just an alternate stepchart to play.

I strongly agree there should be more 19 foot stamina charts. I'm sick of gimmicky speedups and overused jacks and jumps. EGOISM 440 and PARANOiA Revolution are the only good 19 footers, because they're mostly hard for the right reasons. The rest are garbage filled to the brim with gimmicks and nonsensical challenge.


Some songs could be given new ratings if you strip them of their speed changes or stops, such as CHAOS. Forgive me for using a Beginner chart as example, but MAX 300 and Pluto Relinquish would be absolute cakewalks were it not for the multiplied BPM's/Speed changes, but these warrant a shameful 5 foot rating, despite feeling like 2 footers.

I don't think that there are too many challenging songs though (as in, 15 foot and up). It's not like they make up half of the game, and even if it did it wouldn't be much of a problem anymore considering the 700+ songlist on the current DDR.

However I notice there's a couple of these hard songs that seem to just be hard for hard's sake, and are generally not that good as actual music. They're usually those loud, fast, synth-heavy songs where the arpeggio is always a "Voltage" section with lots of notes. Songs like Elemental Creation, IX, Triple Journey, Revolutionary Addict, Flower, Jomanda, Prana, and others I can't think of at the moment.

Some of these aren't too bad, but it just seems like the song is composed with the stepchart in mind, and it seems we keep getting more and more cliche sounding songs made to just sound hard, and they end up being kind of predictable. I want a challenge, but I also want to be able to just listen to the song and enjoy it. For example, I can enjoy songs like Possession or even Max 300 on a car ride, but a song like Revolutionary Addict is a snooze-fest unless you're actually playing it.

One thing I want to see is more songs that sound very nonthreatening getting some pretty tricky Challenge charts. I'd love to see some Dancemania classics from 3rdMIX, 4thMIX or MAX return and get very hard charts, similar to what in the groove used to do, and what they did with X3 vs. 2ndMIX, but harder.

Post #8 · Posted at 2016-01-16 12:16:23am 8.2 years ago

Offline Venny
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Reg. 2014-12-31

is the only reason why ddr shouldn't go higher than 20s is because the pad isnt as good as itg's?

Post #9 · Posted at 2016-01-16 12:49:07am 8.2 years ago

Offline KittyBox
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Reg. 2014-05-01

I personally feel that, in any game series, as long as people can keep accomplishing stuff, things should just keep getting harder, but only on the hardest difficulty (in this case, challenge.) As long as there's always a reasonable difficulty level for something, I really don't care what the hardest is, and I'd rather be able to wow at the people doing increasingly ridiculous stuff than it to just peak off for no good reason. I'm not saying "OH WELL MAKE A 50 THEN LOL," but more so...just make what the best players can do and try to give them a challenge besides getting a good score; give them back the challenge of trying to even so much as clear a really hard song.

With the chart design, I think that gimmicky songs are fine, but not all of them should be gimmicky. All of the 19s have slowdowns. All of them throw crossovers like nobody's business. Most of them don't mind throwing step jumps or crazy jump streams around like they're bread crumbs or something I cannot think of a good analogy here. As said above a few times, it'd be nice to see more stamina based charts alongside the current technique based charts. I remember hearing about people who could clear MAX 300 Heavy but couldn't even make a dent into AFRONOVA Heavy because of the crossovers while ago. That's not to say "BURN CROSSOVERS THEY'RE SATAN WITCHES," (they're rather fun on the easier songs with them after all,) but rather to say that there should be more than just that.

As for the songs themselves, I agree that they're sort of repeating a trend nowadays. There's some really cool gems in this game, but not enough of them are at the top level of difficulty. I don't hate the songs like FLOWER, Elemental Creation, etc. as much as others seem to, but I agree that it's getting quite old to have boss a be the same as boss b and boss c and boss d and...
It's probably frustrating as hell for the people diving into 17s-18s who don't like that kind of music to be limited to, for the most part, just that. the first 20 better be speedcore. that or idk something else, I think I'm a minority in liking it tbh

*insert some sort of good conclusion here to make this post feel less empty*

Post #10 · Posted at 2016-01-16 09:03:12pm 8.2 years ago

Offline NicholasNRG
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I say that as soon as Valkyrie DimensionChallenge gets AAA'd that a 20-footer should be released. Until then, more 19's every now and then to warm up with.

Post #11 · Posted at 2016-01-16 09:08:49pm 8.2 years ago

Offline Quickman
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"Yuuki Mishima for Tekken"
>"All 19s"
>"Except EGOISM and Paranoia Revo"
>There are FOUR singles 19s.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/35/18/59/351859511cd9e331b596d0ff8255760d.jpg

Yeah, we get the point, Valkryie Dimension sucks and you hate it and it sucks and it sucks and you don't like it and it sucks and you want it to go away.
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Post #12 · Posted at 2016-01-18 02:50:02am 8.1 years ago

Offline wrsw
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Reg. 2016-01-01

"Sleep cancelled due to COVID-19."

Last updated: 2016-01-18 02:51am
1. How hard should the hardest songs be?

There should be at least one 20-footer. I mean everyone knows that it won't be very fun, but it should be there, just for the spectacle of "oh my god, a 20-footer".

Or they could do Elemental Creation 2.0 and have a stepchart with 1000 steps but since when does Bemani do that like ever

2. In recent DDRs, there has been a trend towards more Heavy 14's-16's and less heavy songs below 10. What do you think?

I can't give an unbiased opinion; I primarily play songs in the 14-16 range, so I personally love it! Stuff like the original MAX trio, 4 variants of roppongi evolved, revolutionary addict (though I've yet to beat that one), and another phase I find really fun.

3. What do you think about the increased use of challenge charts?

Ok, so this is an interesting question.

On one hand, Konami has a pretty bad history of terrible challenge charts being given to songs that didn't need them. Everyone hates Fascination MAXX's random filler steps, or Pluto Relinquish's terrifying last stream, or most shock arrow charts in general, or New Decade/Possession's general use of jumps and patterns, or Valkyrie Dimension/Paranoia Revolution's...like, everything, or the new MAX. (period)'s attempting way too hard to be an 18 (it was fine at 16). None of those needed the challenge charts they got.

And that's just the worst egregious examples, stuff like HDV's last crossover run, or NGO's random jumps everywhere, do not help this history. And don't get me started on the X-Special charts for the original MAX series.

But on the other hand, many step charts benefit from a really fun challenge chart that's well remembered and might well be the best chart of the song. Stuff like Paranoia survivor MAX (face it, you gotta respect the Challenge, even if it's hard and stamina intensive), or HDV's everything except the last run, London Evolved (all three variants), Revolutionary Addict's Challenge which is really, really fun (it's like the second coming of roppongi evolved), Elemental Creation's Challenge (860 steps, holy crap), or especially EGOISM 440, which is most people's favorite 19 out of all of them.

It goes both ways. If Bemani can step challenge charts which are more like the second half of this answer, then yes, holy crap yes, please more challenge charts. But they should also know when a song is just fine without one. See: PR, New Decade, Possession, VD, PR, MAX.

Post #13 · Posted at 2016-01-18 03:19:56am 8.1 years ago

Offline -Viper-
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DDR is already harder at the highest levels than it ever should have been, its too late now.

Post #14 · Posted at 2016-01-18 08:32:26pm 8.1 years ago

Offline KittyBox
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Reg. 2014-05-01

Quote: wrsw
Pluto Relinquish's terrifying last stream
At least that one's synchronized. Which I would like to see more of, being hard because of the song, not because LOL I CAN PUT STEPS WHEREVER I WANT HAH
seriously we need a properly synchronized speedcore song to be the first 20 it'd be so perfect

Post #15 · Posted at 2016-01-18 10:00:24pm 8.1 years ago

Offline NicholasNRG
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I find that PARANOiA Revolution'sChallenge chart goes way better with the song than its Heavy chart, which is just a mishmash of other boss charts just like Dance Dance RevolutionChallenge before it. It's ridiculously hard but, like Pluto Relinquish's last stream, goes with the song, which is the best type of challenge.

Post #16 · Posted at 2016-01-20 01:21:27am 8.1 years ago

Offline VR0
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There are FOUR singles 19s.
and FIVE doubles 19s.
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Post #17 · Posted at 2016-01-20 01:49:15am 8.1 years ago

Offline NewbStepper
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1. How hard should the hardest songs be?

Personally, I'm impartial. As long as a chart can be played and passed by someone, live and let live. The exact level would be whatever FEFEMZ's passing limit is. Tongue

2. In recent DDRs, there has been a trend towards more Heavy 14's-16's and less heavy songs below 10. What do you think?

Pretty cool, since 14s-16s have more variety among how the charts can be written, whereas Heavy songs below 10 are extremely generic. Besides, every song in the game except Challenge-only songs has at least one chart below level 10 on Singles (although not on Doubles).

3. What do you think about the increased use of challenge charts?

Good, as long as the Challenge charts in question are not a missed opportunity. Most Konami originals can actually sport a decent Challenge chart, although I may be biased on this one. Anyone who's been to my YouTube channel would know what I mean.

Discuss anything else related to the difficulty in DDR also.

I'm quite curious as to what a 20 footer would be like. I can only guess that it's absolutely horrifying on feet. I've made and labelled some charts as 20s but only Konami knows if they qualify as such.

I felt that Beginner charts have very inconsistent ratings. I can't actually tell what distinguishes a 1 footer from a 3 footer, or a even 5 footer at times.
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Post #18 · Posted at 2016-01-20 02:27:20am 8.1 years ago

Offline xXMokou98Xx
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1. How hard should the hardest songs be?

You make them as hard as you want within reason. So long as they can be passed by the high level players, as long as they are charted properly, then I see no reason why you don't continue to make harder charts. There exists much harder fan-made content within the Stepmania community for pad play than what DDR provides, and much of it has far better patterning than the 18-19s.

2. In recent DDRs, there has been a trend towards more Heavy 14's-16's and less heavy songs below 10. What do you think?

This is good, you can do a lot more within this difficulty range as opposed to the latter. This is not to say 10s and below can't have interesting or fun steps, but it takes far more effort to do so with (typically) only 1/4 and 1/8 notes. Personally I favor the 11-14 range where you see most of the creativity shine through in charts, this has been prevalent even back on the old scale when they were 8s and 9s.

3. What do you think about the increased use of challenge charts?



no
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Post #19 · Posted at 2016-01-20 03:23:50am 8.1 years ago

Offline JunkoXXX
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1. How hard should a DDR song be?
I believe that DDR is mostly represented on rhythmic notes and not stream such as the ITG Community. From the recent years of learning how to step songs is that it should really be based on the song. I made mistakes like that like literally two months ago XD trying to make a song harder than what it seems. If a song is slow and steady than the difficulty should be easy. If a song is fast and has many rhythmical patterns in many areas then it should be difficult.
2. In recent DDRs, there has been a trend towards more Heavy 14's-16's and less heavy songs below 10. What do you think?
I would say that people are much cockier these days. People seems to think that they can do hard songs just because "It looks easy" while really it is not since it is a rhythm game after all. But in another perspective is that most people who play DDR now are people who played for years and years so they do not want to play any of the easy stuff. Yet, In japan the casual players only play 14-16's nothing higher or lower. I would say that question is a personal answer than a theoretical one/
3. What do you think about the increased use of challenge charts?
Konami wants to use more challenge charts because they want to use the shock arrow feature, which is personally useless. Also to add in different rhythms or difficult patterns to make the song much more difficult.

Post #20 · Posted at 2016-01-20 04:29:43am 8.1 years ago

Offline NewbStepper
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"Crybabies unite~ ♡"
Quote: PaperSak
Maybe DDR charts need to tone down the out-of-the-box patterns/ speed changes in recent boss charts and go for something simple but hard. Like Legend of Max, Max 300, PSMO, Paranoia Respect... egh, I sound like one of those old school elitists. I guess the hardest song I can have an opinion on is POSSESSION Heavy and yes the slowdown is squishy, but the steps in said slowdown made enough sense and didn't hurt to read as much as Monkey Business. I'm still a little bothered I failed OTP Light with a normal lifebar just because I didn't research the chart well ahead of time to know there's a speed spike at the end.

So maybe more stamina charts rather than technique-oriented charts? I'll take that back if it means more Horatio, though. Just do Sumidagawa Karenka Heavy or AHeavy but like faster and I'd be a happy clam.
Try Elemental Creation Heavy if you haven't already. Happy

Quote: NicholasNRG
Some songs could be given new ratings if you strip them of their speed changes or stops, such as CHAOS. Forgive me for using a Beginner chart as example, but MAX 300 and Pluto Relinquish would be absolute cakewalks were it not for the multiplied BPM's/Speed changes, but these warrant a shameful 5 foot rating, despite feeling like 2 footers.
Beginner chart ratings still puzzle me. ∆MAX and 888 Beginner are rated 3, and New Decade Beginner is rated 4. They're harder than either of the two you mentioned and are on songs that rely on BPM changes as a basis of difficulty. I mentioned in another post on this thread before but I feel that 1-3 ratings on Beginner charts are assigned almost at random.

Quote: KittyBox
With the chart design, I think that gimmicky songs are fine, but not all of them should be gimmicky. All of the 19s have slowdowns. All of them throw crossovers like nobody's business. Most of them don't mind throwing step jumps or crazy jump streams around like they're bread crumbs or something I cannot think of a good analogy here.* As said above a few times, it'd be nice to see more stamina based charts alongside the current technique based charts. I remember hearing about people who could clear MAX 300 Heavy but couldn't even make a dent into AFRONOVA Heavy because of the crossovers while ago. That's not to say "BURN CROSSOVERS THEY'RE SATAN WITCHES," (they're rather fun on the easier songs with them after all,) but rather to say that there should be more than just that.
EGOISM 440 Challenge comes close, I guess. And yes I like to throw in jumps in my TERRIBLE EDIT charts the same way Epic Meal Time likes to throw in bacon. Tongue

Quote: KittyBox
Quote: wrsw
Pluto Relinquish's terrifying last stream
At least that one's synchronized. Which I would like to see more of, being hard because of the song, not because LOL I CAN PUT STEPS WHEREVER I WANT HAH
seriously we need a properly synchronized speedcore song to be the first 20 it'd be so perfect
Seconded! In my opinion, at the very least, the ending stream in Pluto Relinquish Challenge is as sensible as all the streams in PARANOIA survivor MAX Challenge. It's really fast and makes you turn very quickly, but it's not out of place. I would say it's one of the better 18 footers in DDR, and I certainly do not hate the chart. Don't get me wrong, I'm still bothered by charts like DEAD END ("GROOVE RADAR" Special) Challenge, although it was quite inspiring in another way.

Quote: JunkoXXX
Yet, In japan the casual players only play 14-16's nothing higher or lower.
Actually, I highly doubt this. If that was true, why is DDR getting more generic 11-13 Heavy charts more than anything else as of late?
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