Post #1 · Posted at 2016-01-04 11:25:01pm 8.2 years ago
 Storm_x8 | |
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I've heard that on the white DDR2013 cabs, MAing is much easier at 150, 180, or 200bpm (or factors/multiples of those). My question is, well, why? I can kind of start to hypothesize by saying that 150/180/200bpm = 2.5/3/3.33 beats per second. The game runs at 60fps, and 60 divided by 2.5, 3, or 3.33 yields an integer number (24, 20, and 18), which means that there is an integer number of frames per beat. But I'm not sure how to take this explanation any further, since I don't see how having an integer number of frames per beat would make a difference in how wide the marvelous window is - it would still be 1/60 of a second (1 frame), correct? Also, if it's easier to get an MFC on songs with this bpm, is it also easier to get a PFC on them?
If anyone has any more insight into this, I'd love to know.
If anyone has any more insight into this, I'd love to know.
Post #2 · Posted at 2016-01-04 11:51:20pm 8.2 years ago
| razorblade | |
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No matter how small or big the bpm is, as long as you use the highest speed mod you can read and can see notes passing in step zone, the chance for MA is higher. The higher the speed mod, the wider the Marvelous/Perfect window for you to catch up.
Post #3 · Posted at 2016-01-05 12:08:56am 8.2 years ago
| CuzcoBlocko | |
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Is MAing easier on multiples of 120 too?
Post #4 · Posted at 2016-01-05 01:09:34am 8.2 years ago
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razorblade, I don't think that's what I was referring to. If you had a song at 167bpm and a song at 180bpm, even if you choose appropriate speed mods to make the scroll rate the same for both, apparently the 180bpm song is still easier to MA on. I'm just going off what Dr. D said in one of his videos, that there's something intrinsic about those certain bpms that somehow makes getting a marvelous easier, and it's unrelated to the speed mod you use. However, I don't have access to a white cabinet myself, so I can't say for myself if I've seen this effect.
Post #5 · Posted at 2016-01-05 01:50:40am 8.2 years ago
Well, assuming that you are using the same speed mod, the higher the bpm, the easier to MA. That's also a proven theory just like my previous statement. Because in both cases, the bigger the bpm or speed mod you use, the wider the marvelous and perfect window frame for you to catch up.
Post #6 · Posted at 2016-01-05 02:45:19am 8.2 years ago
| Storm_x8 | |
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So to be clear - you're saying there's nothing special about 150/180/200? Just that higher bpm/speed mods help?
Post #7 · Posted at 2016-01-05 03:56:11am 8.2 years ago
I don't want to put the mental work into this problem to understand it, but here's what I know/believe about 60fps DDR timing windows. I'm not totally sure about most of this.
The Marvelous window is two frames large: whatever frame corresponds to the time where the note actually takes place, and then the frame after that one. Presumably it converts the note's time into multiples of 16.67ms and rounds it to determine which frame is the right one. So, unlike Pump or ITG, the "center" of the timing window might not actually be at the exact time the note is.
At those BPMs, it could be that the note's time is more likely to fall in the exact middle of those two frames, or something like that, but that's just speculation.
The Marvelous window is two frames large: whatever frame corresponds to the time where the note actually takes place, and then the frame after that one. Presumably it converts the note's time into multiples of 16.67ms and rounds it to determine which frame is the right one. So, unlike Pump or ITG, the "center" of the timing window might not actually be at the exact time the note is.
At those BPMs, it could be that the note's time is more likely to fall in the exact middle of those two frames, or something like that, but that's just speculation.
Post #8 · Posted at 2016-01-05 04:25:44am 8.2 years ago
| Tyma | |
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Quote: Storm_x8
So to be clear - you're saying there's nothing special about 150/180/200? Just that higher bpm/speed mods help?
The higher the BPM is, the more 'correct' frames of animation get drawn onto the screen, during which you can get a Marvellous. The ammount of miliseconds you have in which to achieve that marvellous are technically the same, but the fact that you're receiving more visual cues makes it much easier to judge the timing.
I hope there is something to the theory of 150/180/200, though, because that's far more interesting than "making the arrows go fast makes them easier to hit".
Post #9 · Posted at 2016-01-05 04:29:14am 8.2 years ago
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Quote: FlameyBoy
The Marvelous window is two frames large
Are you sure marvelous is 2 frames? I was pretty sure that it's just 1.
Post #10 · Posted at 2016-01-05 04:32:04am 8.2 years ago
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It's one frame early and one frame late, for a total of two. This I know for certain.
Post #11 · Posted at 2016-01-05 05:07:17am 8.2 years ago
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I'll post more on this later when I have time. But for now I'll say I don't know why and I hope a discussion like this can help give some answera. I can,promise you that higher bpm read speeds have nothing to do with it. Since DDR X, those BPMs have been much easier to MA, especially when player on newer black or white machines. All one needs to do is find a list of Ginxyasu's MFC list to notice a patterns proving this assertion.
Post #12 · Posted at 2016-01-05 05:58:24am 8.2 years ago
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Quote: razorblade
No matter how small or big the bpm is, as long as you use the highest speed mod you can read and can see notes passing in step zone, the chance for MA is higher. The higher the speed mod, the wider the Marvelous/Perfect window for you to catch up.
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
Post #13 · Posted at 2016-01-05 06:06:22am 8.2 years ago
| Silverhawke | |
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Quote: razorblade
No matter how small or big the bpm is, as long as you use the highest speed mod you can read and can see notes passing in step zone, the chance for MA is higher. The higher the speed mod, the wider the Marvelous/Perfect window for you to catch up.
uh, i think you meant the higher the speed more, the wider the window are visually. timing-wise it's still the same.
Post #14 · Posted at 2016-01-05 06:20:23am 8.2 years ago
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Quote: Tyma
"making the arrows go fast makes them easier to hit".
You're thinking of DDR Dance Wars, which (as best as we could determine) calculated judgment based on the arrow's pixel distance from the targets, rather than any time-based measurement. Of course, this means that faster arrows were harder to time.
Certainly not the case for arcade DDR. I think FlameyBoy is on the right track; if the video FPS is a nice multiple of the song BPS, the arrows are drawn on-screen in the same locations, beat after beat, and visual players have a more precise correlation.
Post #15 · Posted at 2016-01-05 07:15:10am 8.2 years ago
| Silverhawke | |
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here i rounded down the milliseconds where a note occurred to the lowest frame.
each x would be frames where a 16th would be a marvelous -- the frame it happened and the frame after it.
one line equals 1 beat, and i considered 240 frames (aka 4 seconds)
most BPMs cause the number of frames between each beat to vary, so that might explain why.
each x would be frames where a 16th would be a marvelous -- the frame it happened and the frame after it.
one line equals 1 beat, and i considered 240 frames (aka 4 seconds)
most BPMs cause the number of frames between each beat to vary, so that might explain why.
BPM = 120
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BPM = 180
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BPM = 200
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BPM = 130
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BPM = 150
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BPM = 160
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BPM = 187
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BPM = 180
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BPM = 200
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BPM = 130
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BPM = 150
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BPM = 160
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BPM = 187
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Post #16 · Posted at 2016-01-05 07:32:11am 8.2 years ago
Quote: ICNH
You have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
My statement only makes sense when you understand the condition in bold text. This also applies to my second statement, the same speed mod, different bpms.
Quote: razorblade
No matter how small or big the bpm is, as long as you use the highest speed mod you can read and how well you can see notes passing in step zone, the chance for MA is higher. The higher the speed mod, the wider the Marvelous/Perfect window for you to catch up.
I'm stating it based on my experience. Not as godly as yours, but I got PFCs too so, chillax, kid.
Post #17 · Posted at 2016-01-05 07:38:31am 8.2 years ago
| Silverhawke | |
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Last updated: 2016-01-05 07:47am
that doesn't relate to the thread's question, and really, what you're saying means that "the higher the speed mod you use, the more spread out are the notes and you can see them approaching the step zone better."
the timing window doesn't stretch at all, it just covers more space visually (which probably would help if you time visually), but since this isn't Dance Wars the space the marvelous window occupies visually means nothing.
the facts are that due to the frame-based engine of the game, in general the number of frames between each beat in a song would vary, but some BPMs cause the number of frames between each beat to be constant, which may have contributed to those BPMs being easier to MA.
the timing window doesn't stretch at all, it just covers more space visually (which probably would help if you time visually), but since this isn't Dance Wars the space the marvelous window occupies visually means nothing.
the facts are that due to the frame-based engine of the game, in general the number of frames between each beat in a song would vary, but some BPMs cause the number of frames between each beat to be constant, which may have contributed to those BPMs being easier to MA.
Post #18 · Posted at 2016-01-05 07:46:45am 8.2 years ago
Quote: Silverhawke
that doesn't relate to the thread's question, and really, what you're saying means that "the higher the speed mod you use, the more spread out are the notes and you can see them approaching the step zone better."
the timing window doesn't stretch at all, it just covers more space visually (which probably would help if you time visually), but since this isn't Dance Wars the space the marvelous window occupies visually means nothing.
the timing window doesn't stretch at all, it just covers more space visually (which probably would help if you time visually), but since this isn't Dance Wars the space the marvelous window occupies visually means nothing.
the timing window doesn't stretch at all? yes. But it just covers more space for marvelous/perfect window frame to catch up if you use any highspeed mod, and get marvelous only if you can visually time that window in step zone.
Post #19 · Posted at 2016-01-05 07:50:00am 8.2 years ago
| Silverhawke | |
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Quote: razorblade
the timing window doesn't stretch at all? yes. But it just covers more space for marvelous/perfect window frame to catch up if you use any highspeed mod, only if you can visually time that window in step zone.
to catch up to... what, exactly?
come on, what you're saying is that "notes become spaced out and easier to read and time when you use speed mods that doesn't exceed your reaction time"
it has no bearing as to why some BPMs are easier to MA than others. i can confirm that, and pretty sure ICNH and Dr.D agree too.
Post #20 · Posted at 2016-01-05 08:31:08am 8.2 years ago
For sure, they used highest speed mod they can read too so I think that helped them get MFCs and SDPs, and knowing that both of them are some best visual readers.
to catch up to... what, exactly?
come on, what you're saying is that "beats/measures become spaced out and easier to read and time when you use high speed mods that doesn't exceed your reaction time"
To catch to get marvelous/perfect, obviously, because I mentioned marvelous/perfect window frame. Also, corrected the quote for you.
And if you are good at reading in step zone no matter how synced or not the timing of the notes is, probably yes.
Quote: Silverhawke
to catch up to... what, exactly?
come on, what you're saying is that "beats/measures become spaced out and easier to read and time when you use high speed mods that doesn't exceed your reaction time"
To catch to get marvelous/perfect, obviously, because I mentioned marvelous/perfect window frame. Also, corrected the quote for you.
Quote: Storm_x8
So to be clear - you're saying there's nothing special about 150/180/200? Just that higher bpm/speed mods help?
And if you are good at reading in step zone no matter how synced or not the timing of the notes is, probably yes.